[url]http://www.getacoder.com/projects/operating_system_42879.html[/url]
@joemck said:
Hmm, he must've reposted it a few times. I've seen almost this exact project description pointed out as a WTF on that site at least once before.
[url]http://www.getacoder.com/projects/operating_system_42879.html[/url]
@joemck said:
Hmm, he must've reposted it a few times. I've seen almost this exact project description pointed out as a WTF on that site at least once before.
Here.
@helpfulcorn said:
I know this thread is dead, but I thought I should mention that the movie is "Masterminds". He's actually hacking too, that is, he's downloading a copy of Scream II. I'm not joking.
My guess is that the programmer moved from VB6 to C#.
I am going through exactly the same thing, except with VB.NET. Poor guy has absolutely no concept off OOP, and me trying to explain it to him seems to have confused him even more. I've suggested that he get some basic OO training.
@ShadowWolf said:
Salary != Prevailing Wage
And I said specifically YOU will not know if people are paid less because companies do not discuss wages publicly. You cannot know what the company's prevailing wage is and therefore cannot make a determination whether that person is being underpaid or not. Can you?
Another concern I have is whether articles like this one from Infoword might actually be comparing apples to oranges.
Here's the thing: the OES salary estimates are for ALL programmers, from entry-level programmers to solution architects. OTOH, H1B workers are usually at the lower end of the programmer food-chain- i.e., they are brought in for most of the grunt work on software projects. So the salaries paid to them, and hence the overall average, will naturally be lower than the OES numbers. Whether this difference is as large as the $20K that InfoWorld says, I do not know. But in the absence of any sort of accurate estimates, such comparisions are meaningless.
@TunnelRat said:
This was a presentation by a law firm that specializes in teaching employers how to eliminate U.S. workers from consideration for hi-tech jobs:
http://www.youtube.com/programmersguild
Lou Dobbs is on to them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA
The scam involves placing ads in papers to prove that no Americans are available to fill jobs.
You can do you part. Sign this petition ASAP!
I don't understand why the Programmer's Guild is opposed to more green cards.
On the contrary, they should encourage more H1B visa holders to get green cards.
Here's why: The only possible reasons for H1B visa holders to accept lower wages are:
Once the H1B visa holder becomes a green card holder, he/she is a legal permanant resident of the USA. What this means is that:
The law firm video describes a process which comes into play long after the H1B holder is actually in the country, so it doesn't really address TunnelRat's major grievances- i.e., the curry-munching and the wage-stealing.
@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/bhlog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
What, is there an problem here?
She was menopausal, a bitch, and a DBA. And she talked to me like a dog that had just shit on her rug.
And the H1-Bs I worked with ate curry, were not fluent in English, and worked for 30% less than I did. The last one I knew tried to peddle bootleg I.T. books.
Finally, Mr. Bill was clueless, and gayish. Not that there is anything wrong that, I just found it odd, and amusing. I mean, was he gay, or just gayish? There is a whole Seinfeld show that riffed on that - http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOuting.htm.
Right, I think my work here is done.
The weekend is over and I just don't have the time to follow up on this any more, since I have to get back to the job I stole from a US worker before taking a lunch break to munch some delicious curry. Yum!
I shall watch with considerable interest your crusade to get all H1B's fired and shipped back home. My money is on it being a spectacular failure.
@tster said:
Tunnelrat might not be right about everything he has said, but he has made some good points, and you calling him a racist really only makes you look stupid because you seem to think that doing so wins the argument. .
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
He only has a problem with asians who don't speak, look or eat like him.
You think he would have a problem with a fine Caucasian Swede who spoke broken English and ate <font size="2">surstromming for lunch every day?
</font>
And do you care to cite the "good points" he has made?
@tster said:
PS. The US might not have the best education system in the world (although it certainly isn't bad), but it absolutely has the best higher education system in the world (Yes, ever).
You're preaching to the choir here. I absolutely agree 100% with you about this.
@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
I think my research reaffirms my anecdotal evidence -- H1-Bs for the most part are entry-level hacks with not much more experience than U.S. junior programmers. Almost all I have met are in their twenties with modest skills.
You're evading the question. If indeed these crappy H1B programmers who are being paid 60K are being underpaid, how much should a crappy US programmer be paid?
@TunnelRat said:
Although the U.S. developers may be just as bad programmers, they usually have better communications skills and aren't afraid to push back and challenge technical assumptions. The H1-Bs bring no such diversity of ideas to the table and are terrified of upsetting their bosses -- where they come from, they can't even eat at the same table with their bosses. Let's not deny the extreme cultural dynamics involved.
Generalization, almost all inaccurate. You are taking characteristics of a minority and expanding it to cover the entirety. And who the hell cares if someone can eat at the same table as their bosses or not? I have worked with enough new-age vegans who are 100% white-bread WASPs and would not sit at the same table where meat was being eaten. I didn't care a rats ass about their eating habits, BECAUSE IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. As usual, you find any reason you can to back up your own racist agenda.
So, for about 50-75% of the wage of an American, I.T. managers get a mediocre programmer who will do whatever it takes to stay employed, depriving the workplace of the essential give-and-take that is required for good software development. Net/net, I think it is a bad deal for all parties.
And yet it continues. Do you think all Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc. all have their collective head up their ass and like losing money?
I think I would trust them to know more about what works in their business than a bitter, resentful malcontent.
p.s. What do you think of my communication skills? Do I pass your exacting standards?
@TunnelRat said:
Strawman, zonker. You really can't be saying that there isn't rampant fraud with the H1-B system and H1-Bs are getting payed prevailing wages, do you?
Of course there is some fraud going on. In any system where there is money to be made, there is going to be fraud. But it is the exception, and not the rule.
About 20,000 of the 85,000 H1Bs from last year were acquired by the big Indian consulting companies you accuse of paying lower wages. How about the remaining 65000? Are they also being underpaid?
@TunnelRat said:
According this this UC Davis professor:
The industry says the H-1B holders are needed to maintain its level of innovation. I, too, support facilitating the immigration of "the best and the brightest," but very few H-1B holders in the tech field are in that league. Government data show that the vast majority make, at most, in the $60,000 range (Intel's median is $65,000). Yet even non-techies know that the top talents in this field make more than $100,000. And the vast majority of awards for innovation in the field have gone to U.S.-born workers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/EDGOULJ5BC1.DTL
It appears that most H1-Bs, (75% are Indians that take jobs in I.T.), are fairly mediocre hacks making about 60K. You are telling me that CIOs cannot find people with those mundane skill sets among the ranks of U.S. techies?
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
Also, this guy (Norman Matloff) is well known for his anti-immigration and anti-H1B agenda. I wouldn't expect him to opine any different.
I can also start quoting from those who extol the H1B program. It wouldn't serve any purpose, because you believe what you believe, and for every fact you throw up or every citation you quote, I can cite an opposing opinion or a counter-balancing fact.
At the end of the day, the H1B program is here and the foreign workers you so despise are also here, and all your ranting and raving and passive resistance movements are going to achieve nothing but keep getting you fired.
@TunnelRat said:
I think that link supports my position as much, if not more than yours:
The H-1B visa program is controversial [5] Advocates say the program (and similar ones operated by other technologically-advanced countries) helps the host country maintain its technological as well as economic superiority by providing a steady flow of highly skilled professionals who may be in short supply domestically. It also provides an incentive for companies not to move their operations abroad. Recent data suggests, that this intent is not the guaranteed outcome.
The H-1B program has been criticized for displacing substantial numbers of experienced American citizen technical professionals or lowering wages enough to encourage them to abandon volatile careers in targeted fields such as computer technology. Although there are differing views on whether or not the H-1B visa is good for the U.S. economy, economist Milton Friedman has called the program a form of subsidy.[6].
Of course it is criticized. It is people like you who criticize it.
@TunnelRat said:
Currently the number of H-1B visas issued per year is limited to 65,000 with an additional 20,000 for those with U.S. graduate degrees and no limit for universities and non-profit and government research laboratories.
Hmmm... 20,000 of 85,000 visas are reserved for applications with US graduate degrees. And yet, TunnelRat has not met a single one with a US degree. Perhaps he isn't getting the jobs that actually require, like, smart people.
@TunnelRat said:
Other critics have argued that H-1B programs are distorting market forces within the U.S. by incentivising Indian nationals to flood U.S. graduate schools to earn Advanced degrees solely for the purpose of obtaining work visas, and at the same time de-incentivising U.S. citizens from earning technical degrees or continuing on to earn graduate degrees due to applicant pool flooding. For instance, at the undergraduate level, US-born engineering students constitute upwards of 90-95% of the student population, with a student pool that is larger than the number of foreign born nationals who apply to engineering graduate schools to earn advanced degrees. Yet, upwards of 50% of the advanced degrees conferred in technology are to foreign-born nationals.[7]
Well, what's the excuse here? If American students are too lazy or scared to compete with foreign nationals for advanced degrees, whose fault is that? Waah, waah the application pool is flooded.
@TunnelRat said:
According to IndiaTimes InfoTech:
H-1 B is a temporary visa programme that enables employers in US to hire professional level foreign workers for a period of up to six years. As per the US law, employers must pay H1-B workers either the same rate as other employees with similar skills or the ‘prevailing wage’ for that occupation and location, which ever is higher.
The December 2005 findings by Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), on whose basis two US Senators wrote to nine Indian firms asking for details of how 20,000 H1-B visas were used, reveal that such visa holders were being paid an average salary of $52,312 as against $65,003 to locals.
Oh, and nice bit of intellectual dishonesty here. IndiaTimes InfoTech does not "say" anything on this issue. It merely quotes a study by CIS, which is a right-wing immigration-reduction oriented organization, and the outcome of the release of the study results.
What results did you expect the study to yield? That H1B salaries are reasonably comparable to salaries for locals?
Do you want me to start quoting tobacco industry sponsored studies that found no link between smoking and lung cancer?
@TunnelRat said:
I take issue with the use of the term "immigrant" to describe H1-Bs. They are not migrating to the U.S. -- they are brought here to work at sub-market wages and then, after six years, they have to go back to their home country.
OK, you have just confirmed what I suspected. You don't really understand what the H1B visa type is all about.
Congress removed the "temporary" designation from the H1B visa class, recognizing that the H1B visa is the first step in the immigration process. See [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#H-1B_and_legal_immigration"]H-1B_and_legal_immigration[/url] for more information about this.
And you are fooling yourself if you think that all H1B visa workers are here on sub-market wages. This may be true for the bodyshoppers but is certainly false for those non-US citizens who have come through the US university system and then moved into the American workforce via the H1B visa.
The more you say, the more your ignorance and paranoia shine through.
@TunnelRat said:
So you're obviously only working on the crap jobs that hire the dregs of the H1B quota.
Yup, my perception is my reality. I've only been doing this for about 15 years, so maybe I am just inexperienced.
Either that or you just have the wrong experience.
@TunnelRat said:
Do you know that 20,000 H1B slots are reserved for non-immigrants with US degrees?
WTF is a non-immigrant with an H1-B?
Do you even understand what an H1B visa is?
@TunnelRat said:
Your wonderful non-cooperation approach will just result in you getting fired as there must be dozens of hard-working, non-bigoted contractors willing to do your job without bitching and moaning all the time and actually approaching the job with an open mind.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I will get an H1-B fired instead. I have no problem finding work, because I don't bitch and moan. I just ask the H1-Bs to repeat themselves, and when they can't write coherent specs or emails, I copy my boss. He usually gets tired of it and gets the hint -- H1-Bs are a waste of his money.
Good luck with that. My bet is that it is going to be your ass that gets fired most of the time.
If a company has to make a choice between a good company man and an insubordinate insolent self-important hack, guess who's getting the boot.
@TunnelRat said:
Finally:
And this is just people I know personally, not even counting those I have met at work. In my experience, the percentage of sucky non H1B programmers is quote comparable to that of sucky H1B programmers.
Agreed. But keep in mind -- how many potential good U.S. programmers are working for the DWP (75K), law firms (100k+), porn-biz (?), etc. because they know the I.T. business is loaded with low-wage indentured servants that are suppressing wages? Why bother? The work is tough, you need training, and it caps out around 100k? And the cheap CIO will always have WiPro or Infosys whispering in his ear "I can get ten shitty guys in hear for the price of five of these shitty Americans! After all, they all suck anyway!"
Why pay top dollar for crap if you can get it for cheap?
And I know how many potential good U.S. programmers are out there. I have interviewed at least a dozen people every year for the last 7 or 8 years. And I have hired/recommended for hire about 10 or so in that time. And only maybe a couple of them needed a new H1B or needed to transfer an existing H1B.
There ain't that many good programmers out there. And that's just a fact.
@TunnelRat said:
I've never met an H1-B that was educated in the U.S.
So you're obviously only working on the crap jobs that hire the dregs of the H1B quota.
Do you know that 20,000 H1B slots are reserved for non-immigrants with US degrees?
And that a large percentage of the rest also have some level of education in the US?
You say you have never met an H1B who was educated in the US. I, personally, know (literally) over a hundred.
And this is just people I know personally, not even counting those I have met at work. In my experience, the percentage of sucky non H1B programmers is quote comparable to that of sucky H1B programmers.
Your wonderful non-cooperation approach will just result in you getting fired as there must be dozens of hard-working, non-bigoted contractors willing to do your job without bitching and moaning all the time and actually approaching the job with an open mind.
It's no longer as economically viable as it used to be to bring someone over on an H1B visa- outsourcing is the trend now- and that's a whole different story.
@TunnelRat said:
And if the H1-B program is so essential, why have programmer salaries been flat or declined since the 90's?
One of the reasons why salaries flattened or declined was the whole internet bubble thing. But the top programmers still did fine.
Case in point, yours truly. I started work in IT in 1996 as a trainee out of college, eventually being hired on an H1B visa within 6 months.
My salary more than doubled while I was on H1B, and has more than tripled over the 11 years I have worked in IT- 5 years on H1B, 6 years on a Green Card and now as a US Citizen.
One thing you fail to recognize is that the H1B visa route is the only way for a non-US citizen who was educated in the USA to get a job and work in the USA.
So the program itself is not a sham. There are some employers who are abusing it, but in a capitalist economy, if there is an advantage to be taken, someone will take it.
Oh yeah, and I am a "curry-eating wage pirate".
Better curry than cholestrol clogging my veins.
And about the wage pirate thing: If my company could find someone to do my job for less than what I am paid, they would have done so by now.
@unklegwar said:
Although, I find do it indicative of the very problem with H1-B workers (that I've encountered). They can't focus and don't know what they're talking about (or doing). I can't say I am capable of feeling sorry for anyone who agrees to work for well below established wages, thereby displacing american workers in america and suppressing IT wages in general.
And it's not like they don't manipulate things either. My friend is the single American in a sea of H1-Bs, he's trying to manage high turnover, as all the H1-Bs take a cheap job to get over here, then start looking to jump ship immediately for the next better opportunity. They have no more loyalty or values than their supposed "enslavers".
Why do you think that H1B workers agree to work for well below established wages? Do you even know how the H1B visa process works? Among other things, the employer has to show that they are paying the prevailing wage for the job. And do you know how difficult it is to "jump ship" to the next better opportunity? Changing jobs on H1B is a huge hassle and the turnaround time on it is a discouraging factor to many employers. Especially since an H1B worker who has been here for a couple of years is not going to be "cheap" anymore.
The H1B visa was most abused about 10 years ago, mainly pre Y2K. But once the internet bubble burst, most of the lower quality H1B workers went or were sent home.
Sure, there will be some who work for lower wages, but there are equally others who make par or above-par wages.
The majority (in fact, almost all) of people I know who were initially employed on H1B visas earned graduate degrees at US universities before getting a job. And pretty much all of them are in IT and have six-figure salaries. (And this includes me)
I feel pity for someone like TunnelRat, whose blind prejudices and knee-jerk rage at anyone who looks different from him cause him to blame them for his own personal failures.
If he were any good, he wouldn't be starting a new job every couple of months.