[url]http://www.getacoder.com/projects/operating_system_42879.html[/url]
@joemck said:
Hmm, he must've reposted it a few times. I've seen almost this exact project description pointed out as a WTF on that site at least once before.
[url]http://www.getacoder.com/projects/operating_system_42879.html[/url]
@joemck said:
Hmm, he must've reposted it a few times. I've seen almost this exact project description pointed out as a WTF on that site at least once before.
Here.
@helpfulcorn said:
I know this thread is dead, but I thought I should mention that the movie is "Masterminds". He's actually hacking too, that is, he's downloading a copy of Scream II. I'm not joking.
My guess is that the programmer moved from VB6 to C#.
I am going through exactly the same thing, except with VB.NET. Poor guy has absolutely no concept off OOP, and me trying to explain it to him seems to have confused him even more. I've suggested that he get some basic OO training.
@ShadowWolf said:
Salary != Prevailing Wage
And I said specifically YOU will not know if people are paid less because companies do not discuss wages publicly. You cannot know what the company's prevailing wage is and therefore cannot make a determination whether that person is being underpaid or not. Can you?
Another concern I have is whether articles like this one from Infoword might actually be comparing apples to oranges.
Here's the thing: the OES salary estimates are for ALL programmers, from entry-level programmers to solution architects. OTOH, H1B workers are usually at the lower end of the programmer food-chain- i.e., they are brought in for most of the grunt work on software projects. So the salaries paid to them, and hence the overall average, will naturally be lower than the OES numbers. Whether this difference is as large as the $20K that InfoWorld says, I do not know. But in the absence of any sort of accurate estimates, such comparisions are meaningless.
@TunnelRat said:
This was a presentation by a law firm that specializes in teaching employers how to eliminate U.S. workers from consideration for hi-tech jobs:
http://www.youtube.com/programmersguild
Lou Dobbs is on to them:
Lou Dobbs: Law Firm teaches how to avoid hiring Americans – 03:26
— programmersguildThe scam involves placing ads in papers to prove that no Americans are available to fill jobs.
You can do you part. Sign this petition ASAP!
I don't understand why the Programmer's Guild is opposed to more green cards.
On the contrary, they should encourage more H1B visa holders to get green cards.
Here's why: The only possible reasons for H1B visa holders to accept lower wages are:
Once the H1B visa holder becomes a green card holder, he/she is a legal permanant resident of the USA. What this means is that:
The law firm video describes a process which comes into play long after the H1B holder is actually in the country, so it doesn't really address TunnelRat's major grievances- i.e., the curry-munching and the wage-stealing.
@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/bhlog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
What, is there an problem here?
She was menopausal, a bitch, and a DBA. And she talked to me like a dog that had just shit on her rug.
And the H1-Bs I worked with ate curry, were not fluent in English, and worked for 30% less than I did. The last one I knew tried to peddle bootleg I.T. books.
Finally, Mr. Bill was clueless, and gayish. Not that there is anything wrong that, I just found it odd, and amusing. I mean, was he gay, or just gayish? There is a whole Seinfeld show that riffed on that - http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOuting.htm.
Right, I think my work here is done.
The weekend is over and I just don't have the time to follow up on this any more, since I have to get back to the job I stole from a US worker before taking a lunch break to munch some delicious curry. Yum!
I shall watch with considerable interest your crusade to get all H1B's fired and shipped back home. My money is on it being a spectacular failure.
@tster said:
Tunnelrat might not be right about everything he has said, but he has made some good points, and you calling him a racist really only makes you look stupid because you seem to think that doing so wins the argument. .
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
He only has a problem with asians who don't speak, look or eat like him.
You think he would have a problem with a fine Caucasian Swede who spoke broken English and ate <font size="2">surstromming for lunch every day?
</font>
And do you care to cite the "good points" he has made?
@tster said:
PS. The US might not have the best education system in the world (although it certainly isn't bad), but it absolutely has the best higher education system in the world (Yes, ever).
You're preaching to the choir here. I absolutely agree 100% with you about this.
@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
I think my research reaffirms my anecdotal evidence -- H1-Bs for the most part are entry-level hacks with not much more experience than U.S. junior programmers. Almost all I have met are in their twenties with modest skills.
You're evading the question. If indeed these crappy H1B programmers who are being paid 60K are being underpaid, how much should a crappy US programmer be paid?
@TunnelRat said:
Although the U.S. developers may be just as bad programmers, they usually have better communications skills and aren't afraid to push back and challenge technical assumptions. The H1-Bs bring no such diversity of ideas to the table and are terrified of upsetting their bosses -- where they come from, they can't even eat at the same table with their bosses. Let's not deny the extreme cultural dynamics involved.
Generalization, almost all inaccurate. You are taking characteristics of a minority and expanding it to cover the entirety. And who the hell cares if someone can eat at the same table as their bosses or not? I have worked with enough new-age vegans who are 100% white-bread WASPs and would not sit at the same table where meat was being eaten. I didn't care a rats ass about their eating habits, BECAUSE IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. As usual, you find any reason you can to back up your own racist agenda.
So, for about 50-75% of the wage of an American, I.T. managers get a mediocre programmer who will do whatever it takes to stay employed, depriving the workplace of the essential give-and-take that is required for good software development. Net/net, I think it is a bad deal for all parties.
And yet it continues. Do you think all Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc. all have their collective head up their ass and like losing money?
I think I would trust them to know more about what works in their business than a bitter, resentful malcontent.
p.s. What do you think of my communication skills? Do I pass your exacting standards?
@TunnelRat said:
Strawman, zonker. You really can't be saying that there isn't rampant fraud with the H1-B system and H1-Bs are getting payed prevailing wages, do you?
Of course there is some fraud going on. In any system where there is money to be made, there is going to be fraud. But it is the exception, and not the rule.
About 20,000 of the 85,000 H1Bs from last year were acquired by the big Indian consulting companies you accuse of paying lower wages. How about the remaining 65000? Are they also being underpaid?
@TunnelRat said:
According this this UC Davis professor:
The industry says the H-1B holders are needed to maintain its level of innovation. I, too, support facilitating the immigration of "the best and the brightest," but very few H-1B holders in the tech field are in that league. Government data show that the vast majority make, at most, in the $60,000 range (Intel's median is $65,000). Yet even non-techies know that the top talents in this field make more than $100,000. And the vast majority of awards for innovation in the field have gone to U.S.-born workers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/EDGOULJ5BC1.DTL
It appears that most H1-Bs, (75% are Indians that take jobs in I.T.), are fairly mediocre hacks making about 60K. You are telling me that CIOs cannot find people with those mundane skill sets among the ranks of U.S. techies?
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
Also, this guy (Norman Matloff) is well known for his anti-immigration and anti-H1B agenda. I wouldn't expect him to opine any different.
I can also start quoting from those who extol the H1B program. It wouldn't serve any purpose, because you believe what you believe, and for every fact you throw up or every citation you quote, I can cite an opposing opinion or a counter-balancing fact.
At the end of the day, the H1B program is here and the foreign workers you so despise are also here, and all your ranting and raving and passive resistance movements are going to achieve nothing but keep getting you fired.