Yesterday one of our IT project managers told me the following story:
Our corporate top management had done a strategically super-important and highly profitable deal with the provider of an internet selling platform, allowing us to distribute our products over their service.
For this purpose, we had to provide our new business partner with daily updated product descriptions and pricing data.
The operations manager of the business department in charge with the cooperation approached my colleague and his team and charged them with implementing the data exchange. She already had put together a technical concept.
As an IT person in our company, you have to be thankful if the business people have the slightest idea what they actually want before they request a new project, let alone have a concept.
The problem with this manager's concept, however, was that it went well into the technical details, despite the fact that she had no idea about technical things. She only knew MS Excel, and so the concept involved a bunch of Excel sheets that would have to be exchanged between us and the other company, and regularly merged and maintained on either side - altogether a very cumbersome and error-prone semi-manual process.
My colleague decided that there had to be a better way, and in fact the other company already had a powerful, well-tested web-service API.
The interface to that API was nearly finished when the manager got wind that the implementors hadn't stuck to her concept. She demanded that all that had been built so far be scrapped, and her Excel-based solution implemented instead. My colleague refused, pointing out that, as the IT project manager, the technical implementation was in his responsibility and not in hers.
She went furious and cancelled the whole project, not only throwing out all the effort that had already been made on either side, but also costing both companies several hundred thousands, if not millions, of Euros of potential revenue. Naturally, she blamed it all on my colleague, accusing him of having "sabotaged" the project.
It was his luck that top management had, in the meantime, put their attention on new, even more super-important projects, so the cancelled project was already out-of-sight, out-of-mind to them, and nobody really cared any more about who had screwed up.
ronin1
@ronin1
Best posts made by ronin1
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Do it my way or leave it
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
A big part of this discussion could have been avoided by reading the original post properly.
To clarify:
1. It was NOT the business partner who requested the Excel solution, in fact it was them who asked us why we didn't want to use their existing web service that all of their other partners use. Using Excel sheets would only have introduced a potential source of malfunction, thus deteriorating their service for all their customers. In fact, if we had insisted on the Excel solution, the *partner* would probably have cancelled the cooperation.
2. The middle manager didn't come up with the Excel solution because she thought it was quicker to implement than a webservice interface, but because she doesn't know what a webservice is. Excel is the only IT-related thing she understands.
I think those two points are very clear from the OP, so I conclude that some people misinterpreted them on purpose to have something to troll about.
What was not said in the OP but apparently also needs to be clarified:
3. I don't know whether the manager had talked to the partner about the technical implementation. If she has, they would certainly have frowned upon the idea of using Excel sheets instead of the webservice they created for exactly that purpose. But as far as I know her, that doesn't keep her from pursuing that idea anyway. Maybe she expected our tech guys to convince the partner to use her solution.
A minor misunderstanding that also came up in one post:
4. It would have been understandable if top management just wouldn't have cared about the implementation, but they also didn't bat an eye about the whole cooperation being cancelled.Anyway, even if the story would have gone the way some people here understood it: You don't scrap a potentially multi-million Euro cooperation just because somebody disagrees with you over the implementation.
Managers are not supposed to know about or come up with implementation details; that's the reason why IT departments exist in the first place. -
RE: Do it my way or leave it
@Ronald said:
Coming up with the original story doesn't make you a Prophet. You also should pay attention to what people write
A large part of the discussion ensued because you thought our business partner had suggested the Excel solution, while the original story said the opposite. One big point of yours was "if the partner demands it, you do it, and don't come up with your own fancy solutions", which may or may not be a valid argument but has nothing to do with this story.
@Ronald said:
My guess is that facing the lack of cooperation from IT the account manager got cold feet.
I would agree if a) the web service solution wouldn't have been nearly finished when the project was cancelled, and b) she had actually consulted the IT department before creating a technical concept (which officially is not her job).That way, it was more lack of obedience than lack of cooperation.
My guess is that she was simply so pissed off that somebody dared to disagree with her that she reacted irrationally. She probably knew that she could afford that because in our company, no manager who screwed up, however royally, has ever been fired. I could tell you more examples on that.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
@TDWTF123 said:
So yes, TRWTF is that the OP is pissing on the suggestion to use Excel despite not having a clue about what Excel is capable of.
We're not talking about giving some PHB a tool where (s)he can view data from a webservice his/her beloved Excel.
We're talking about hundreds of product descriptions from two different CMS, and ten thousands of pricing data records coming from a mainframe that need to be delivered on a daily basis. I don't see how Excel is supposed to serve as a clean solution here.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, I think you imagine the task to be a lot simpler than it is, which is not your fault, considered that I haven't given very much information about its complexity.
Anyway, I don't deny that it would be possible to implement some solution that uses both Excel and the partner's web service (even if it would need a lot of VBA, IMHO taking surely about the same effort as doing it in a real programming language).
But that's not the point at all. The manager didn't say she wanted any implementation as long as it involved Excel. Instead, she wanted exactly the implementation that was specified in her concept. And even if there was a simple, clever and maintainable way to do it in Excel, I highly doubt that it was in her concept, so it would have been equally rejected.
She didn't choose Excel because she had made the informed decision that it was the better solution. She chose it because it was the only IT-ish thing she knew.
My suspicion is that all what mattered to her was to play a vital role in the project so she could take the credit of the its success, even if that meant to do a job that she wasn't qualified for and that wasn't in her responsibility. When the IT project managers created their own concept (which is actually their job) and had it implemented (thereby reducing the importance of her contribution), the project became useless to her, and before she let someone else take any credit, she could as well scrap it altogether. Typical PHB behaviour.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, I thought at first you were just misunderstanding, but now it seems you begin to fantasize outright. I know I didn't give you much detail about the systems, the workflows, the management structures etc., but that doesn't mean that it's OK for you to make that detail up and judge the situation based on wild speculation.
You don't know anything about the systems involved, the amout of data to be transferred, the complexity of our products, or the frequency of change, etc. I can't imagine why you think that Excel is the perfect solution here (except if you think that Excel is the perfect solution for everything).
It's not true that Excel is part of the workflow. It's also not true that I've never met or interacted with the said manager. Where did you get that idea? I've worked with her on a few occasions, and my impression was that it's not very easy to get along with her. It seems that her idea of collaboration is that she gives orders and other people follow them.
To clarify further, if anybody cares:
* The IT project manager, the business manager (officially: head of supply chain management) and I all work in the same company. It is not a consulting company.
* The head of supply chain management was tasked by her higher-ups to manage the business side of the cooperation.
* No specific person working with the partner company has been mentioned. The colleague who told me the story only said that he and his team had called the partner about the proposed Excel solution, and the partner had asked why they didn't use the web service API instead. As I've been told in the meantime, the partner was apparently unaware that an Excel solution was in discussion previous to that call.
* The head of supply chain management who created the Excel based concept has no IT background whatsoever, while the IT project manager has a degree in computer science. I don't know what brings you, TDWTF123, to believe that she can judge the viability of a concept, be it involving Excel or not, better than he can.
I've meanwhile talked to the colleague again and asked him why he didn't simply implement the Excel concept. After all, it wouldn't have been his fault if it hadn't worked. His answer was that:
1. He was totally surprised by the reaction of our manager. He thought that by implementing a concept that was suggested by the partner, and that he deemed easier to implement and maintain, he'd do her a favor.
2. He decided againts implementing a cumbersome, error-prone and hard to maintain process because it would have bound his resources in form of developer's work time; resources he would need for subsequent projects.
3. He knew from experience that implementing a mediocre solution and then improving it as soon as its flaws show is not an option. Given the short attention span of our management, they're not very inclined to let you re-visit a project that has already been labeled "mission accomplished". They simply won't give you the time to do that when you're up to the ears in other, newer, more important projects (new projects are always more important than past ones). Once an implementation is in place, you're stuck with it.
4. I don't know how often I'll have to repeat that, but the main reason for not using the Excel concept was that the partner didn't want it.
Ronald, concerning your response, I acknowledge that managers also are under pressure and their motives aren't always as crazy as they seem to people outside of the process of decision. Maybe I'm doing her wrong to suspect that she reacted irrationally and/or selfishly, but when I compare her personality as far as I know her, that's at least a possibility. I also can't imagine any other reason why she should create an IT concept in the first place while it's definitely not her responsibility.
I've worked with a lot of managers here, and most of them are wise enough to leave the creation of IT concepts entirely to those who were hired specially to do it, or, if they think they absolutely have to make one by themselves, at least listen to advice from the IT people. Then, however, there are a few who think they have to micro-manage everything and will take any objection as a personal insult. The reaction to cancel a whole project is extreme but not entirely implausible for some personalities.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, you seem to be referring to a whole different story. It seems you deliberately make up things I never said just to make it fit your Excel fanaticism.
- You said that I'd never met the manager who made the concept. Wrong.
- You also seem to believe that Excel is already part of our workflows. Wrong.
- You seem to believe that the supply chain manager's concept somehow involved using Excel as front end or interface between the systems, which I have repeatedly told you is wrong.
There's nothing more to be said. But feel free to continue beating up the straw man you've created.
Latest posts made by ronin1
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, you seem to be referring to a whole different story. It seems you deliberately make up things I never said just to make it fit your Excel fanaticism.
- You said that I'd never met the manager who made the concept. Wrong.
- You also seem to believe that Excel is already part of our workflows. Wrong.
- You seem to believe that the supply chain manager's concept somehow involved using Excel as front end or interface between the systems, which I have repeatedly told you is wrong.
There's nothing more to be said. But feel free to continue beating up the straw man you've created.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, I thought at first you were just misunderstanding, but now it seems you begin to fantasize outright. I know I didn't give you much detail about the systems, the workflows, the management structures etc., but that doesn't mean that it's OK for you to make that detail up and judge the situation based on wild speculation.
You don't know anything about the systems involved, the amout of data to be transferred, the complexity of our products, or the frequency of change, etc. I can't imagine why you think that Excel is the perfect solution here (except if you think that Excel is the perfect solution for everything).
It's not true that Excel is part of the workflow. It's also not true that I've never met or interacted with the said manager. Where did you get that idea? I've worked with her on a few occasions, and my impression was that it's not very easy to get along with her. It seems that her idea of collaboration is that she gives orders and other people follow them.
To clarify further, if anybody cares:
* The IT project manager, the business manager (officially: head of supply chain management) and I all work in the same company. It is not a consulting company.
* The head of supply chain management was tasked by her higher-ups to manage the business side of the cooperation.
* No specific person working with the partner company has been mentioned. The colleague who told me the story only said that he and his team had called the partner about the proposed Excel solution, and the partner had asked why they didn't use the web service API instead. As I've been told in the meantime, the partner was apparently unaware that an Excel solution was in discussion previous to that call.
* The head of supply chain management who created the Excel based concept has no IT background whatsoever, while the IT project manager has a degree in computer science. I don't know what brings you, TDWTF123, to believe that she can judge the viability of a concept, be it involving Excel or not, better than he can.
I've meanwhile talked to the colleague again and asked him why he didn't simply implement the Excel concept. After all, it wouldn't have been his fault if it hadn't worked. His answer was that:
1. He was totally surprised by the reaction of our manager. He thought that by implementing a concept that was suggested by the partner, and that he deemed easier to implement and maintain, he'd do her a favor.
2. He decided againts implementing a cumbersome, error-prone and hard to maintain process because it would have bound his resources in form of developer's work time; resources he would need for subsequent projects.
3. He knew from experience that implementing a mediocre solution and then improving it as soon as its flaws show is not an option. Given the short attention span of our management, they're not very inclined to let you re-visit a project that has already been labeled "mission accomplished". They simply won't give you the time to do that when you're up to the ears in other, newer, more important projects (new projects are always more important than past ones). Once an implementation is in place, you're stuck with it.
4. I don't know how often I'll have to repeat that, but the main reason for not using the Excel concept was that the partner didn't want it.
Ronald, concerning your response, I acknowledge that managers also are under pressure and their motives aren't always as crazy as they seem to people outside of the process of decision. Maybe I'm doing her wrong to suspect that she reacted irrationally and/or selfishly, but when I compare her personality as far as I know her, that's at least a possibility. I also can't imagine any other reason why she should create an IT concept in the first place while it's definitely not her responsibility.
I've worked with a lot of managers here, and most of them are wise enough to leave the creation of IT concepts entirely to those who were hired specially to do it, or, if they think they absolutely have to make one by themselves, at least listen to advice from the IT people. Then, however, there are a few who think they have to micro-manage everything and will take any objection as a personal insult. The reaction to cancel a whole project is extreme but not entirely implausible for some personalities.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
@_leonardo_ said:
if the partnering company wanted excel, then who are we to judge?
Another one who can't read. Sigh.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
TDWTF123, I think you imagine the task to be a lot simpler than it is, which is not your fault, considered that I haven't given very much information about its complexity.
Anyway, I don't deny that it would be possible to implement some solution that uses both Excel and the partner's web service (even if it would need a lot of VBA, IMHO taking surely about the same effort as doing it in a real programming language).
But that's not the point at all. The manager didn't say she wanted any implementation as long as it involved Excel. Instead, she wanted exactly the implementation that was specified in her concept. And even if there was a simple, clever and maintainable way to do it in Excel, I highly doubt that it was in her concept, so it would have been equally rejected.
She didn't choose Excel because she had made the informed decision that it was the better solution. She chose it because it was the only IT-ish thing she knew.
My suspicion is that all what mattered to her was to play a vital role in the project so she could take the credit of the its success, even if that meant to do a job that she wasn't qualified for and that wasn't in her responsibility. When the IT project managers created their own concept (which is actually their job) and had it implemented (thereby reducing the importance of her contribution), the project became useless to her, and before she let someone else take any credit, she could as well scrap it altogether. Typical PHB behaviour.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
@TDWTF123 said:
So yes, TRWTF is that the OP is pissing on the suggestion to use Excel despite not having a clue about what Excel is capable of.
We're not talking about giving some PHB a tool where (s)he can view data from a webservice his/her beloved Excel.
We're talking about hundreds of product descriptions from two different CMS, and ten thousands of pricing data records coming from a mainframe that need to be delivered on a daily basis. I don't see how Excel is supposed to serve as a clean solution here.
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RE: Do it my way or leave it
@Ronald said:
Coming up with the original story doesn't make you a Prophet. You also should pay attention to what people write
A large part of the discussion ensued because you thought our business partner had suggested the Excel solution, while the original story said the opposite. One big point of yours was "if the partner demands it, you do it, and don't come up with your own fancy solutions", which may or may not be a valid argument but has nothing to do with this story.
@Ronald said:
My guess is that facing the lack of cooperation from IT the account manager got cold feet.
I would agree if a) the web service solution wouldn't have been nearly finished when the project was cancelled, and b) she had actually consulted the IT department before creating a technical concept (which officially is not her job).That way, it was more lack of obedience than lack of cooperation.
My guess is that she was simply so pissed off that somebody dared to disagree with her that she reacted irrationally. She probably knew that she could afford that because in our company, no manager who screwed up, however royally, has ever been fired. I could tell you more examples on that.
-
RE: Do it my way or leave it
A big part of this discussion could have been avoided by reading the original post properly.
To clarify:
1. It was NOT the business partner who requested the Excel solution, in fact it was them who asked us why we didn't want to use their existing web service that all of their other partners use. Using Excel sheets would only have introduced a potential source of malfunction, thus deteriorating their service for all their customers. In fact, if we had insisted on the Excel solution, the *partner* would probably have cancelled the cooperation.
2. The middle manager didn't come up with the Excel solution because she thought it was quicker to implement than a webservice interface, but because she doesn't know what a webservice is. Excel is the only IT-related thing she understands.
I think those two points are very clear from the OP, so I conclude that some people misinterpreted them on purpose to have something to troll about.
What was not said in the OP but apparently also needs to be clarified:
3. I don't know whether the manager had talked to the partner about the technical implementation. If she has, they would certainly have frowned upon the idea of using Excel sheets instead of the webservice they created for exactly that purpose. But as far as I know her, that doesn't keep her from pursuing that idea anyway. Maybe she expected our tech guys to convince the partner to use her solution.
A minor misunderstanding that also came up in one post:
4. It would have been understandable if top management just wouldn't have cared about the implementation, but they also didn't bat an eye about the whole cooperation being cancelled.Anyway, even if the story would have gone the way some people here understood it: You don't scrap a potentially multi-million Euro cooperation just because somebody disagrees with you over the implementation.
Managers are not supposed to know about or come up with implementation details; that's the reason why IT departments exist in the first place. -
Do it my way or leave it
Yesterday one of our IT project managers told me the following story:
Our corporate top management had done a strategically super-important and highly profitable deal with the provider of an internet selling platform, allowing us to distribute our products over their service.
For this purpose, we had to provide our new business partner with daily updated product descriptions and pricing data.
The operations manager of the business department in charge with the cooperation approached my colleague and his team and charged them with implementing the data exchange. She already had put together a technical concept.
As an IT person in our company, you have to be thankful if the business people have the slightest idea what they actually want before they request a new project, let alone have a concept.
The problem with this manager's concept, however, was that it went well into the technical details, despite the fact that she had no idea about technical things. She only knew MS Excel, and so the concept involved a bunch of Excel sheets that would have to be exchanged between us and the other company, and regularly merged and maintained on either side - altogether a very cumbersome and error-prone semi-manual process.
My colleague decided that there had to be a better way, and in fact the other company already had a powerful, well-tested web-service API.
The interface to that API was nearly finished when the manager got wind that the implementors hadn't stuck to her concept. She demanded that all that had been built so far be scrapped, and her Excel-based solution implemented instead. My colleague refused, pointing out that, as the IT project manager, the technical implementation was in his responsibility and not in hers.
She went furious and cancelled the whole project, not only throwing out all the effort that had already been made on either side, but also costing both companies several hundred thousands, if not millions, of Euros of potential revenue. Naturally, she blamed it all on my colleague, accusing him of having "sabotaged" the project.
It was his luck that top management had, in the meantime, put their attention on new, even more super-important projects, so the cancelled project was already out-of-sight, out-of-mind to them, and nobody really cared any more about who had screwed up. -
How to use a StringBuffer
One of our developers, who has since quit her job as an IT specialist to pursue a career in music, once checked in the following Java code:
for(int i=0; i < someLimit; i++) {
...
stringVar = stringVar + some_other_string;
...
}
Another co-worker pointed out to her that concatenating strings in a loop wasn't a good idea, especially in a method that was called very often, and that she should use a StringBuffer instead.
She accepted his suggestion and rewrote the code:
for(int i=0; i < someLimit; i++) {
...
stringVar = stringVar + new StringBuffer(some_other_string);
...
} -
RE: Double-checking a deterministic process
Did someone ever tell them the definition of insanity?