Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10
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@dkf said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
So it moves the work away from where it belongs and where you can spec the hardware to support it? And there are people who think this is good?!
Just look at all the trendy JavaScript MVCC single page APPZ out there. Who needs server hardware when you can make your client work? Fuck battery life!
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@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Thing is at the time I had also just gotten into linux hardcore. Only a few years prior I installed it for my first time, but it was this time I started actually using it as a primary OS. I'd dual boot, use linux for the most part, and could boot into windows for video games. I even had a virtual machine on the linux side to boot up windows directly from linux off the second hard drive with a virtual wrapper around it so I could run flash from linux without wine (i was big into actionscript 3 back then... paid the bills).
Using vista... made me think of linux a lot.
Everyone cried about the whole vista constantly asking for administrator rights (UMC I think it was called?).
And my linux communities ragged on it the most.
And I was like, "but wait... I have to sudo this and sudo that all the fucking time to! In a gui system I'm prompted for root/admin access when doing all sorts of crap daily. Why aren't we bitching about that???"
Aside from that thing, I don't remember what exactly people hated about Vista. It pestered you a lot for admin rights, that's about it. It was annoying to support because it was such a huge workflow change for plebe users that support people were annoyed of having to explain to Jody in accounting to just click the fucking OK button, after she's been trained to NEVER click any popup window cause it's probably a "virus" (popup ads, circa late 90's internet browsers sucking balls).
As @Scarlet_Manuka said, the hardware requirements were advertised lower than what the system would more smoothly run on. UAC (you were close: User Account Controls) didn't just insist on popping up an "are you sure" for everything "administrator" but a lot of tasks that were really unlikely to screw up your computer. And often times it popped up multiple times for the same "task" (because it was composed of various tasks). This "are you sure" model let you know when something administrative happened and so in that sense it was a good thing, but it was unclear to the user and the user was trained to just hit OK and move on ignoring it... except they couldn't. You see when UAC popped up, it didn't just pop up a box like gksudo or kdesu, it darkened the screen and demanded you address the box... Even if it had to do the darkening as slowly as possible in software rendering. This ended up with you giving the computer a command, it thinking about it for 30 seconds to a minute, and then darkening the screen at which point you couldn't do anything, and then another 15-30 seconds later popping up an "are you sure" which you HAD to address with the mouse, rather than just being able to skip it knowing you intended to do what you intended to do. At which point the box would disappear and your desktop would rerender in about 15-30 seconds. That's if you had the average 2006 computer and ran Vista on it. That even happened to me running Vista on a 2007 computer new from the store that I got for graduation from my parents and grandmother with my older brother's (who worked at circuit city in the tech bench) help. Additionally you couldn't "hit enter" to dismiss it and continue, you had to use the mouse to click the "Allow" button. UAC requires an entire "context switch" for the user.
Contrast this with what Linux does when you need to do something that requires root privileges: you click a link to a program that requires root, the shortcut already has "gksudo" or "kdesu" prefixing the command and a box appears asking for your password. There's no screen darkening, you can address it whenever you want, you can control it with an alt+tab and hitting enter in the box is as good as hitting ok. So when it appears, you type in your password which you already have memorized and can type rather quickly because you use it to log in all the time, and hit enter and the window disappears and the program that needed root privileges shows up and you're on your way and you NEVER HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE AN ARE YOU SURE DIALOG from the OS for that instance of the program again. There's no "context switch" in what the user is doing. If you used the search function in the various "start" menu alikes for Linux's desktops, the shortcut is what was found and the menu was smart enough to launch that (along with the gksudo/kdesu prompt) rather than try to run the program in user mode and fail. So you could keep your hands on the keyboard if you meant to.
In software development, most of the common "this requires root on the command line but shouldn't in a desktop gui" commands, if not all of them, have a DBUS interface which doesn't require sudo privileges to use (for example, shutting down or rebooting the computer). The things that do obviously won't work unless you're root at which point again, you can write your program to examine if it's being run in a root context or a limited user context quite easily and even have the program re-run itself as root prompting for the password using "gksudo" or "kdesu". Windows admittedly does this a bit better now with being able to add an entry to the app manifest where the program always elevates however the OS is set to do that (whether quietly or with a UAC box) but the linux solution is still simpler.
Finally on the command line, bash has a shortcut for running the last command in the context of another command:
!!
This command is substituted for the text of the last command issued in that terminal session. So if you forgot to "sudo" the last command on the command line, retrying as root is as simple as:
$ sudo !!
In windows, your command prompt session MUST START as an administrator command prompt, if it doesn't it HAS TO BE relaunched. Windows does not let you "sudo" nor does it allow you to elevate privileges dynamically. The whole thing has to start from an administrative context even if it makes zero sense for it to do so except when this one task is performed. Even if it makes more sense not to, it MUST BE ADMIN. There's no way to easily prompt the user for permission to do something in a way that the OS will respect and allow you to perform the task or at least in all the times I've gone searching for it to incorporate into my code, I've never found it. Every single solution I have found is basically either to change the manifest so that the program is run in an admin context every time it's run, or to have the program detect if it has been run as admin, and if not, to relaunch itself as admin. Maybe it's more secure that way some how, but it sure is darn annoying that it's not documented anywhere I've been able to find. Or if there IS a way, that THAT isn't documented anywhere either.
TLDR: There are vast differences between "UAC" and "having to sudo" that make the former very painful and the latter pleasant and yet secure. Sometimes Linux just does UX better.
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@xaade said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Some tools end up even being something someone threw together quickly to make life easier, and as such aren't unit tested or have even a basic QA to them. Much less documentation.
BTDT, both writing something for myself that ended up being deployed, and using stuff that other people had thrown together for themselves.
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@GinoMan said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
TLDR: There are vast differences between "UAC" and "having to sudo" that make the former very painful and the latter pleasant and yet secure. Sometimes Linux just does UX better.
Ehhh... that's subjective.
Even with your long explanation.
I've found both to be equally annoying in their own rights. Different, but still annoying.
You may think the linux model to be less annoying... I don't. I don't think it's overly annoying, but I also didn't/don't find UAC (that's it! memory be damned) all that annoying. I welcomed the security over XP.
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@Rhywden said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
One guy wants to use MongoDB to do a many-to-many relationship ...
Someone finally pointed out that many-to-many and denormalization don't mix very well.Did anybody point out that a non-relational database and relational data don't mix very well?
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@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
I don't think it's overly annoying, but I also didn't/don't find UAC (that's it! memory be damned) all that annoying. I welcomed the security over XP.
It depends on how often it asks. If it's very occasionally, it's no problem. OTOH, if it's like a nagging brat of a kid brother…
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@dkf said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
I don't think it's overly annoying, but I also didn't/don't find UAC (that's it! memory be damned) all that annoying. I welcomed the security over XP.
It depends on how often it asks. If it's very occasionally, it's no problem. OTOH, if it's like a nagging brat of a kid brother…
Still a subjective line.
How much is too much? You probably have a different amount than I do.
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@kt_ said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Huh, sure. You can't install busybox for iOS. Other than that, show me one useful app that you can't get from the AppStore but you can get from the Durex Play Dildo Store.
Can't get that on iOS because the info is not available via the API.
B.T.W. : Walled garden sucks. I pay for the device, I do WTF I want with it.
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@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
How much is too much? You probably have a different amount than I do.
I don't know exactly. (I didn't ever use Vista; I missed it because of the cadence of my machine purchasing. By the time I was ready to get a new machine, I could go straight to Win7.) But I'd guess that the preferred number of times to see the dialog comes pretty low except when doing explicit system admin work of course. The aim should always be to only ask questions of the user that they can sensibly answer/decide about.
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@dkf said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
ask questions of the user that they can sensibly answer
E_NO_SENSIBLE_USER
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@Gąska To quote @blakeyrat in the "How did you start hating opensource" thread
How about if I want them to take some fucking pride in their work and stop making everybody in my profession look like incompetent assholes?
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@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
at the time I had also just gotten into linux hardcore.
Share your best Stallman/Torvalds slash fic.
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@Maciejasjmj EEEEEEWWWWWW!!!!! No; just ... no.
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@FrostCat said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@sloosecannon said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
That's also probably why Microsoft hasn't updated the major kernel version since Vista..........
...until Windows 10, which is 10.0, not 6.4 or whatever.
Technically yes, but the kernel hasn't really changed...
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@dkf said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
How much is too much? You probably have a different amount than I do.
I don't know exactly. (I didn't ever use Vista; I missed it because of the cadence of my machine purchasing. By the time I was ready to get a new machine, I could go straight to Win7.) But I'd guess that the preferred number of times to see the dialog comes pretty low except when doing explicit system admin work of course. The aim should always be to only ask questions of the user that they can sensibly answer/decide about.
Dude, it's called a rhetorical question.
My point was that your number would be different from my number, would be different from anyone elses number. No matter what that number may be.
This is what makes it subjective.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@lordofduct said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
at the time I had also just gotten into linux hardcore.
Share your best Stallman/Torvalds slash fic.
::throws up a little in mouth::
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@GinoMan said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Windows does not let you "sudo" nor does it allow you to elevate privileges dynamically.
runas /user:Administrator <program> would like to have a word with you...
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"Guys, this is not a d***-sucking contest.
If you want to star in slash fiction, go right ahead. If you want to deep-throat Stallman, that's your issue."
(In the spirit of proper fanfic, mostly a ripoff of the existing corpus)
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@GinoMan said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Windows does not let you "sudo" nor does it allow you to elevate privileges dynamically.
runas /user:Administrator <program> would like to have a word with you...
That actually doesn't elevate permissions IIRC. Was a big complaint back in the day...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
That actually doesn't elevate permissions IIRC. Was a big complaint back in the day...
It should, it should just run whatever program you're giving it as whatever user you're passing in the /user command. Not sure if it was broken in Vista, but in 7 I can confirm that a CMD window launched via runas does indeed run under the Administrator user instead of the local user (which made attempting to use that via a WebEx remote session fun, since the way my client company's WebEx is set up I couldn't interact with anything with elevated permissions)
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@GinoMan said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Windows does not let you "sudo" nor does it allow you to elevate privileges dynamically.
runas /user:Administrator <program> would like to have a word with you...
Why don't you try it. Open a regular command prompt, use
runas
to open a new command prompt as administrator, and then do something that requires elevation... say,echo Hello world!>C:\WINDOWS\Hello.txt
. I'll wait...
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
It should,
Internetz and personal experience says it doesn't actually, unless you have UAC disabled.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
in 7 I can confirm that a CMD window launched via runas does indeed run under the Administrator user instead of the local user
It runs under the Administrator user, but it's not elevated.
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@anotherusername said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@GinoMan said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Windows does not let you "sudo" nor does it allow you to elevate privileges dynamically.
runas /user:Administrator <program> would like to have a word with you...
Why don't you try it. Open a regular command prompt, use
runas
to open a new command prompt as administrator, and then do something that requires elevation... say,echo Hello world!>C:\WINDOWS\Hello.txt
. I'll wait...That actually WOMM without elevation, because the tards that set up my work machine did this:
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@fbmac said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Redource IDs was an MFC thing
They're not "an MFC thing". All Windows programs with resources have resource IDs - whether they're MFC, ATL, or pure raw Win32.
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@Tsaukpaetra you could run
at
instead... it should sayAccess is denied.
if the command prompt is not elevated. Also%errorlevel%
will be set to1
.edit: or
whoami /groups|find "12288">nul&&echo Elevated||echo Not Elevated
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@sloosecannon said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@FrostCat said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@sloosecannon said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
That's also probably why Microsoft hasn't updated the major kernel version since Vista..........
...until Windows 10, which is 10.0, not 6.4 or whatever.
Technically yes, but the kernel hasn't really changed...
The initial builds were 6.4. They changed just before release as I remember.
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@lordofduct The telemetry that you aren't allowed to turn off, or think you can turn off but can't, is what gives me pause.
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@kt_ said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
half baked moronic apps with duplicated functionality that was done by a teenager for a school project clouding app your app search results
Reminds me of the OUYA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4qAeBveAgU
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@operagost said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@lordofduct The telemetry that you aren't allowed to turn off, or think you can turn off but can't, is what gives me pause.
Wouldn't it be great to find out how often Task Manager is used on the average dev's Hololens device?
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@operagost it's you!
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@anotherusername said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@operagost it's you!
Your part is silent, you little toad!
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@Tsaukpaetra A toad, madam? It is you who are the toad!
OK, that's quite enough. Don't want to have to strangle anyone.
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@error said in [Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10]
Reminds me of the OUYA:
Some OUYA lover downvoted me?
Srsly?
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@operagost said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@Tsaukpaetra A toad, madam? It is you who are the toad!
OK, that's quite enough. Don't want to have to strangle anyone.
These things do happen... ;)
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@error said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Srsly?
Apparently, it happened again!
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@e4tmyl33t This does not work on Windows 10 [Education edition]. Running the command
runas /user:"Local Administrator" notepad.exe
does not open an elevated instance of notepad. Proven by attempting to edit the hosts file, and getting no permission when attempting to save the file.
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It must be the way our client laptops are configured around that local administrator account that they can get around UAC then. UAC isn't disabled across the board, but using runas is the accepted way of getting Administrator shit done without having to deal with it.
I stand corrected. No, that would take too much energy. I sit corrected.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
I stand corrected. No, that would take too much energy. I sit corrected.
???
;)
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Edit since the original didn't onebox:
But that's not sitting!
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@Tsaukpaetra Can't hear you, gaming.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
It must be the way our client laptops are configured around that local administrator account that they can get around UAC then. UAC isn't disabled across the board, but using runas is the accepted way of getting Administrator shit done without having to deal with it.
I stand corrected. No, that would take too much energy. I sit corrected.
...really, because every site that I can find on Google where someone's asking "how can I elevate from the command prompt" the answer is literally just "you really can't". So if someone there figured out how I'd be curious how they did it.
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@anotherusername It may also just be that the stuff we need Administrator permissions for (usually software installs/uninstalls) is fine enough with it being an Administrator account and not requiring elevation beyond that.
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@e4tmyl33t ah... yeah, if you're running an installer, because it'll typically request elevation. That's only if they request elevation, though; applications that don't request elevation won't get elevated, even if they're runas administrator.
If your UAC setting is never prompt and the setup is running under an admin user account and it requests elevation, then the whole requesting elevation and getting it wouldn't even be noticeable to you. If the setting was to prompt, you'd get the UAC prompt but you wouldn't have to reenter an admin user's name and password because it'd already be running as administrator.
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@anotherusername said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
if someone there figured out how I'd be curious how they did it.
set elevatedCmd=notepad C:\Windows\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts set vbs="%temp%\%RANDOM%-%RANDOM%.vbs" echo>%vbs% CreateObject("Shell.Application").ShellExecute "cmd.exe", "/c ""%elevatedCmd%""",, "runas" cscript /nologo %vbs% del /f /q %vbs%
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From LinkedIn:
Karla,
I saw your profile online as Microsoft is targeting Technology Professionals with your background and caliber of experience. I'm writing to ask have you ever thought about working for Microsoft directly? I work within the Microsoft Professional Services Group and we are looking for senior professionals who are passionate about Microsoft Technologies to join us. Obviously, I don't know if you are open to new career opportunities, if you would like to learn more, I'd like to touch base either for this particular role or any opportunities that could present itself in the future. I'm available to speak with you this week any time after 11:00 AM EST. If these times do not work for you. Give me some options that will. I look forward to starting a dialogue.
Thanks and looking forward to speaking with you!
FirstName LastName
FLastName@microsoft.comI think I will pass.
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@flabdablet said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
@anotherusername said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
if someone there figured out how I'd be curious how they did it.
set elevatedCmd=notepad C:\Windows\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts set vbs="%temp%\%RANDOM%-%RANDOM%.vbs" echo>%vbs% CreateObject("Shell.Application").ShellExecute "cmd.exe", "/c ""%elevatedCmd%""",, "runas" cscript /nologo %vbs% del /f /q %vbs%
Mine's a bit more fancy....
@echo off Title {REDACTED Application title} management - Elevating... :: Created by {REDACTED} (Tsaukpaetra) 23 March 2015 :: This will work even if started directly from a UNC Path :: Ensure ADMIN Privileges :: adaptation of https://sites.google.com/site/eneerge/home/BatchGotAdmin and http://stackoverflow.com/q/4054937 @echo off :: Check for ADMIN Privileges set allargs=%* set allargs=%allargs:"=""% >nul 2>&1 "%SYSTEMROOT%\system32\cacls.exe" "%SYSTEMROOT%\system32\config\system" if '%errorlevel%' NEQ '0' ( Title Asking for permission... &&mode con: cols=40 lines=2 &&echo Asking for Admin Privledges... echo CreateObject^("Shell.Application"^).ShellExecute "cmd.exe","/c %~s0 %allargs%", "", "runas", 1 > "%temp%\getadmin.vbs" "%temp%\getadmin.vbs" && del "%temp%\getadmin.vbs" && exit /B ) else ( REM Got ADMIN Privileges! pushd "%cd%" && cd /d "%~dp0" &&set allargs= )
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Anonymous ex-Microsoft coder on what it's like to work on Windows 10:
Mine's a bit more fancy
Yeah, so's mine; I just pared it down to the bare essentials to illustrate the fundamental mechanism.