Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014
-
Short version:
- Revolv releases a "smart home hub" device that controls lights and other "internet of things"-stuff in your house. The product is useless without the phone app and associated API.
- Nest buys Revolv in October 2014, discontinues device.
- Google/Alphabet buys Nest.
- Google/Alphabet announces they're going to discontinue the Revolve APIs.
- Consumers who bought a product only 16 months ago are completely fucked.
-
I'd say that, under EU consumer law, a device that completely stops functioning within 24 months is a clear case of "non-conformity" and reason for a full refund/replacement.
-
Is the era of IoT bringing an end to the concept of ownership?
WTF? No. This isn't an IoT problem, it's a Cloud problem. There are IoT devices that are self-hosted, and they work just fine no matter what the parent company does. Don't trust cloud devices, that's basically the rule here.
-
@blakeyrat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
they're going to discontinue the Revolve APIs.
This is one of the reasons I question if you really bought a product. I say, sure, disconnect the API, but then OPEN SOURCE it so OTHERS can reconfigure their endpoints and host it themselves!
It's one of the things that will probably kill things like the Jackbox Party Pack games, because the game is literally unplayable if the jackbox servers are disabled or unreachable for any reason, which is the same situation (potentially) that we have here.
I would literally be 100% on board with this move, if it were possible by any means to alter the API configuration on the device and subsequently host your own copy of the API server. With the use of personal keys and certificates, you could even make it secure!
It's not difficult, just nobody's thought that far ahead yet....
-
Reminds me if my Samsung SmartTV. Seems like every month I get a notification about some app being discontinued.
-
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Don't trust cloud devices, that's basically the rule here.
And continue to expect an unlimited reservoir of stupid from any product with "smart" in its name or description.
-
@Tsaukpaetra I'm sure some savvy folks will find a way to hack the devices so that will happen.
It's still a really shitty thing for Google to do, and they really should think long and hard about whether this is the best strategy to attract people to buy their stuff. I've always been wary of these kinds of cloud-connected devices, but thought my fears were more with smaller companies. Now Google's on my list of SaaS companies I need to think twice about using for mission-critical software. I know this isn't the first time they've done stuff like this, but most of what they've stopped supporting in the past were free to use.
-
@The_Quiet_One Was the revolv API not free for revolv device owners to use?
-
More importantly, what happened to the guy's hummus?
-
@flabdablet said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@The_Quiet_One Was the revolv API not free for revolv device owners to use?
The API itself was free, but the product using it was not. This would be equivalent to Google discontinuing all cloud services that Chromebooks use, leaving their owners with a few-hundred dollar doorstop.
-
@The_Quiet_One said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
some savvy folks will find a way to hack the devices
I know it was eventually done underground for Mario Kart Wii, but iirc that took a lot of effort and maybe even a little bit of illegality to accomplish... It doesn't inspire too much hope for "out-there" services.
-
@hungrier That hummus metaphor was fucking awful.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
It's one of the things that will probably kill things like the Jackbox Party Pack games
Yeah, but they're games. A dozen evenings full of fun and I've gotten my money's worth. The wiring for home automation is significantly more important to daily life.
-
@The_Quiet_One Google is not going to be selling any more revolv stuff, the ongoing use of the API was a straight-up cost for Google, and we all know already that Google doesn't give a shit what anybody thinks of it any more. From Google's point of view that API was in exactly the same category as Reader was: something that a relatively insignificant number of
cattleusers relied heavily upon.
-
@flabdablet Google also runs a quite large cloud service, and the marginal cost of keeping those servers going to them is, at most, 1/12th of a salary. And not even a senior-level salary.
That's probably worth it to keep articles like this from harming their reputation.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
reconfigure their endpoints
That may not be possible without setting up your own custom DNS. The device is probably hardcoded to connect to their server.
-
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Don't trust cloud devices, that's basically the rule here.
The problem is, as cynical as it might sound, the masses basically buy whatever looks shiniest at the moment. So this will happen over and over again. It will take many years before the lesson is learned.
-
@anonymous234 So how do we fix it?
-
@slapout1 said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Reminds me if my Samsung SmartTV. Seems like every month I get a notification about some app being discontinued.
Yup. Although it's not been something I've actually used so far.
-
@flabdablet said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@The_Quiet_One Google is not going to be selling any more revolv stuff, the ongoing use of the API was a straight-up cost for Google
I'm quite sure Google can handle the expense of providing basic SaaS support for a product. If not, then they shouldn't have bought the company if they weren't able to support its existing user base.
From Google's point of view that API was in exactly the same category as Reader was: something that a relatively insignificant number of
cattleusers relied heavily upon.Apples and oranges. Google Reader didn't cost anyone anything, upfront or monthly, to use. If one relied on Google Reader for stuff, discontinuing was merely an inconvenience rather than serious buyer's remorse. The fact that people bought devices for hundreds of dollars is what is shitty about this.
-
@The_Quiet_One The founders of the company are pretty scummy for not putting a "you will maintain the webservice for X years" clause in the contract when they sold the company. Because that's where it belonged.
Well, to be fair, maybe they were just inexperienced enough to think, "hey, man, it's Nest, those are the good guys they wouldn't screw our customers!"
-
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@anonymous234 So how do we fix it?
There is no good universal method. My company sells the source to our application. Well, they used to. A prospective client asked "what if the product goes under in less than 15 years or so?" In cases like that in the past, I was told we have put the source in escrow such that if our company goes under, it can be released to clients willing to pay for the privilege. That way they can attempt to find a Progress programmer to learn how the application works and keep it going.
I've heard of other companies doing this, but it's probably pretty rare.
-
@anotherusername said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
That may not be possible without setting up your own custom DNS. The device is probably hardcoded to connect to their server.
Exactly. The least they could do is offer a "Sorry, we discontinued this stuff. If you still want to use it, here's an (unsupported) firmware and some docs to help you keep it running on your own."
Instead, they rely on hackers to provide that sh*t.@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
companies doing this
should be more common, tbh.
-
@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
I was told we have put the source in escrow
I was under the impression this was pretty common when providing software for the government or large organisations. I know my last place had this set up for all their code. I believe they used a solicitors as a combination of code escrow and off site backup for source control, with all code replicated over there on a Friday night.
-
@blakeyrat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@The_Quiet_One The founders of the company are pretty scummy for not putting a "you will maintain the webservice for X years" clause in the contract when they sold the company. Because that's where it belonged.
Well, to be fair, maybe they were just inexperienced enough to think, "hey, man, it's Nest, those are the good guys they wouldn't screw our customers!"
I would say it's the latter combined with "Who cares? Not our problem anymore, and we get money! Yay!"
And, who knows? They might have even had something to that effect written down in the agreement, but Google's juggernaut of lawyers found a loophole or something.
-
@slapout1 said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Reminds me if my Samsung SmartTV. Seems like every month I get a notification about some app being discontinued.
I bought a new LG 3D TV and the LG store had some nice 3D short films which really showed off the effects and was nice to show interested people. Until they removed all the films. Guess those couple of gigabytes were putting too much strain on the system :(
-
@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
I've heard of other companies doing this, but it's probably pretty rare.
One day my boss came to me
" A customer was worrying about us going out of business. I put a src bundle on our website, can you copy a GPL LICENSE file over from your Linux system?"
And that was that, our stuff was free software.
Not that anybody cared
Not that we hadn't talked about this before.
But he could've asked...
all that embarrassing PHP code
-
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@anonymous234 So how do we fix it?
Don't buy shit that requires connectivity like that. Ever. For any reason. And laugh at those who do.
You have to put up with the occasional :fa_tinfoil_hat: emoji thrown your way but yknow what? Everything I own still works.
-
@Lorne-Kates said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
You have to put up with the occasional :fa_tinfoil_hat: emoji thrown your way
You also have to be prepared to say "oh, you think I'm crazy? Well, Resolv already did it", as well.
Or Revolv or whatever their cutesy-ass name was, I CBA to scroll back up.
-
-
@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@anonymous234 So how do we fix it?
There is no good universal method. My company sells the source to our application. Well, they used to. A prospective client asked "what if the product goes under in less than 15 years or so?" In cases like that in the past, I was told we have put the source in escrow such that if our company goes under, it can be released to clients willing to pay for the privilege. That way they can attempt to find a Progress programmer to learn how the application works and keep it going.
I've heard of other companies doing this, but it's probably pretty rare.
The office I used to work in had that with one of its contractors. The source was in escrow so if they ever went out of business, we would have the source.
Granted, it'll probably be a moot point in the next year or two as they phase out that product since it's a Java applet.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Resolv
?Is that a bucket of condoms?
-
@Lorne-Kates said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Is that a bucket of condoms?
If you consider rodent poison a condom, then yes.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@Lorne-Kates said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Is that a bucket of condoms?
If you consider rodent poison a condom, then yes.
Well, it is a form of birth control...
-
@anonymous234 said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
It will take many years before the lesson is learned.
Shit, you're an optimist. Have you not studied your P. T. Barnum?
-
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
So how do we fix it?
RESOLVED AS_DESIGNED WONT_FIX
-
@blakeyrat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Well, to be fair, maybe they were just inexperienced enough to think, "hey, man, it's Nest, those are the good guys they wouldn't screw our customers!"
Or maybe they'd just had one of the standard commercial epiphanies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8c_m6U1f9o
-
@FrostCat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Or Revolv or whatever their cutesy-ass name was
Fuckr.
-
@blakeyrat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@hungrier That hummus metaphor was fucking awful.
I still don't see what's so wrong about one guy giving another guy a hummus...
-
While I agree that this is a dick move on the part of Google, I'm more annoyed by shitty "tech" journalism that clearly fails to understand the issue they're writing about, as demonstrated here:
Which hardware will Google choose to intentionally brick next? If they stop supporting Android will they decide that the day after the last warranty expires that your phone will go dark? Is your Nexus device safe? What about your Nest fire/smoke alarm? What about your Dropcam? What about your Chromecast device? Will Google/Nest endanger your family at some point?
They're not "choosing to brick" the hardware. The hardware still works and does the same thing it did before. They're shutting down the service the hardware talks to, which makes the hardware useless but doesn't brick it. If they chose to stop supporting Android, then the Play Store would go down, but the phone would still work. I don't know what the smoke alarms talk to, but the Chromecast would still work just fine and continue to do what it does, since it doesn't need to talk to any servers.
So they either don't understand what's happening, or they do and choose to lie.
-
@flabdablet said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Fuckr.
I said I wasn't going to go back and look, or I didn't want to go back and look, or something (I'm not going to go back and look that up, either), so that's as good as any.
Fuck the fucking fuckers who ruilink textned Fuckr!
Naw, you know what, I'm not going to fix that, but I'll assume it's NodeBB and not a plugin, and open a ticket if I can find the link.
-
@Kian said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
They're shutting down the service the hardware talks to, which makes the hardware useless but doesn't brick it.
Oh I love this forum. "They're not making it completely useless due to a botched patch or firmware update, they're making it completely useless due to closing a webservice! THEREFORE IT'S PERFECTLY OK AND WE SHOULD ALL GIVE GOOGLE FREE MONEY!"
Seriously, what kind of stupid argument is that? The specific way in which Google makes the hardware useless isn't important. What matters is that they are doing it.
-
@blakeyrat said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
Seriously, what kind of stupid argument is that? The specific way in which Google makes the hardware useless isn't important.
It is important when you then go on to ask "what will they make useless next"? If you understand how they're "bricking" it, then you know that things that don't need to talk to servers can't be bricked in this manner. The argument should be "Don't buy things that require a server to work", not "don't buy from Google", because other companies also do it.
For instance, Microsoft recently killed some games that relied on Games for Windows LIVE auth servers to work. Single-player offline games, that is. And there are many other publishers that have similar schemes. All sorts of companies are "selling" stuff that relies on the continuing existence of irrelevant services to work, and that's where the complaint should be focused.
-
The argument should be "Don't buy things that require a server to work", not "don't buy from Google" [...]
It should be both.
As in "don't trust companies that screw their customers over".
-
@MrL said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
As in "don't trust companies that screw their customers over".
Last I checked, that's all of them. The whole concept of trade is to get more out of the exchange than you are giving up, and while zero-sum or even positive-sum exchanges are possible, they are so rare in practice that they might was well be unicorns - and as a rule, you don't stay in business very long if you are on the losing end of too many negative-sum exchanges.
-
@ScholRLEA said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
while zero-sum or even positive-sum exchanges are possible, they are so rare in practice that they might was well be unicorns
I don't know about you, but I participate in positive-sum exchanges every time I buy anything. I get a product for a price I'm willing to pay, someone else gets some money. Win-win.
-
Last I checked, that's all of them. The whole concept of trade is to get more out of the exchange than you are giving up, and while zero-sum or even positive-sum exchanges are possible, they are so rare in practice that they might was well be unicorns - and as a rule, you don't stay in business very long if you are on the losing end of too many negative-sum exchanges.
The whole concept of trade works because almost all exchanges are positive-sum.
Those that are not are called 'scams' or 'extortions'.
-
@blakeyrat Time for lawsuits and for the Supreme Court to weigh in. Digital rights management versus rights of purchasers and also the right of first sale need to get settled in the USA at least. I am sure Europe will get it sorted faster than we will, considering our Congress refuses to do anything they aren't paid to do or say.
But this doesn't surprise me. Amazon pulled this BS by yanking books back from people who had bought them due to a publisher request. That is literally the equivalent of them kicking down your door and taking the book back. And I am seeing mobile games that people paid real money for being shuttered with just a simple notice saying, "yeah we're done with this now, we've pulled it from download and you can't play it anymore either." The digital marketplace, and internet of things, and everything else being touched by today's "modern" ecosystem needs a right good sorting and a thorough cleaning out.
-
@Lorne-Kates said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@Yamikuronue said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
@anonymous234 So how do we fix it?
Don't buy shit that requires connectivity like that. Ever. For any reason. And laugh at those who do.
You have to put up with the occasional :fa_tinfoil_hat: emoji thrown your way but yknow what? Everything I own still works.
You and me both, Lorne, you and me both:D
-
@Vaire said in Google Permanently and Remorselessly Bricking Hardware Sold in 2014:
I am sure Europe will get it sorted faster than we will
Only for B2C transactions, where existing consumer protection law will cover it. After all, 16 months would not be considered to be a reasonable amount of time for a thermostat to function if it was a cheap non-smart system and making the whole thing “smart” wouldn't change that expectation.
B2B transactions aren't nearly so closely regulated. Businesses are supposed to know what they're doing…