Our company used to have these cardboard lunch boxes - maybe 6"x12"x4" - made out of recycled paper. Then we got bought out.

The new place used paper bags because they are less of a hit on the environment, but they were a much larger 8"x10"x20". Then, the paper bags disappeared, and in their place are plastic bags that would easily fit a tall kitchen trash can - to carry your meal in.

Because we can grow more oil to make the plastic, to make the excessively large bags, to carry a bagel or sandwich.

Obviously, the plastic is cheaper (for the company)...

So much for easing the strain on the environment.

Plastic is a hell of a lot better for the environment than paper is.  Also, why do you think the impact of plastic is that significant?  How much do you actually know about ecology and waste management? 

snoofle:

Because we can grow more oil to make the plastic

I have an oil tree in my backyard.

MasterPlanSoftware:

snoofle:

Because we can grow more oil to make the plastic

 

I have an oil tree in my backyard.

Maybe he thinks they use canola oil to make plastic bags. 

MasterPlanSoftware:

snoofle:

Because we can grow more oil to make the plastic

 

I have an oil tree in my backyard.

bstorer:

Oh, man, that's awesome! If only there were some sort of tree that grew paper, we'd be set!

I had one of those... but McCain cut it down to drill for oil.

MasterPlanSoftware:

bstorer:

Oh, man, that's awesome! If only there were some sort of tree that grew paper, we'd be set!

 

I had one of those... but McCain cut it down to drill for oil.

morbiuswilters:

Plastic is a hell of a lot better for the environment than paper is.  Also, why do you think the impact of plastic is that significant?  How much do you actually know about ecology and waste management? 

On one side, as a general rule, most plastic is made from the byproducts of refining oil, which in most cases, is not a renewable resource.

On the other side, as a general rule, in an open landfill, paper will break down a whole more quickly than plastic (yes, I know that milk bottles are made of plastic that degrades more quickly than other plastics, but still not as quickly as paper), but we're talking bags here, and these particular bags don't happen to be the kind that degrade quickly.

snoofle:

On the other side, as a general rule, in an open landfill, paper will break down a whole more quickly than plastic

You don't recycle? WTF!? You are a bastard.

snoofle:

On one side, as a general rule, most plastic is made from the byproducts of refining oil, which in most cases, is not a renewable resource.

The Sun isn't a renewable resource either, but it's still vast enough for me to not worry about running out.

snoofle:

On the other side, as a general rule, in an open landfill, paper will break down a whole more quickly than plastic (yes, I know that milk bottles are made of plastic that degrades more quickly than other plastics, but still not as quickly as paper), but we're talking bags here, and these particular bags don't happen to be the kind that degrade quickly.

Which is precisely part the problem.  Biodegradable materials are more volataile than plastics and the effects of many types decomposing at the same time tends to create toxic sludge (leachete) that has to be contained using heavy layers of plastic.  Additionally, the sludge that is formed eventually reaches a point where it slows the continued decomposition of "biodegradable" waste.  Think about it, what would be safer to bury: something that breaks down quickly or something that takes thousands of years to decompose?

morbiuswilters:

Plastic is a hell of a lot better for the environment than paper is. Also, why do you think the impact of plastic is that significant? How much do you actually know about ecology and waste management?

Actually, they've discovered that plastic bags (and similar things made from plastic, such as those thin transparent wrappers on practically everything in a modern grocery store) are dramatically worse for the environment than paper bags are, and are also dramatically worse than other recyclable plastic objects. I'll go look for the article where I read this -- it was published less than a year ago, but I can't remember where -- but the points were:

• Plastic bags (being so thin) have different thermodynamics than thicker objects, so unless you recycle them separately from everything else, they start to burn up in the process of being melted down and cause impurities in the end product
• Plastic bags are extremely likely to break free from waste containers because they are sheetlike and lightweight, meaning that even when properly disposed of they can end up as litter
• Because they are made from plastic, they keep the things which would ordinarily aid in decomposition (bugs, worms, bacteria) from spreading freely through the organic material landfill, thus making the landfill less efficient
• Plastic bags which get into natural wetlands and rivers tend to get stuck in a single location, and anything which ends up underneath such a bag dies because the bag blocks oxygen/carbon dioxide and sometimes also sunlight. This in turn causes extra stress on the rest of the things living in the water because the decomposition is not offset by more living things in the same area as is usually the case

Having said this, I am obliged to add that a cloth bag (if reused) beats both paper and plastic hands down. But since you can't always have a reusable cloth bag, the second-safest choice for a bag or a container is definitely paper.

The Vicar:

Having said this, I am obliged to add that a cloth bag (if reused) beats both paper and plastic hands down. But since you can't always have a reusable cloth bag, the second-safest choice for a bag or a container is definitely paper.

morbiuswilters has the best resolution for this. He cannot afford groceries, and therefore does not buy them.

But the one time he treated himself to a bottle of ketchup, he was sure to bag it in 50 plastic bags and then throw them seperately from the roof of his apartment building as a curse to the wretched world in which he can only afford annual splurges into condiments.

morbiuswilters:

MasterPlanSoftware:

bstorer:

Oh, man, that's awesome! If only there were some sort of tree that grew paper, we'd be set!

 

I had one of those... but McCain cut it down to drill for oil.

Yeah, well, Obama would have cut it down too, just to get his brother down.

MasterPlanSoftware:

You don't recycle? WTF!? You are a bastard.

Actually, around here, we are required, by law, to separate recyclables into: paper, cardboard, clear bottles, colored bottles, cans and toxic stuff (paint, oil, aerosol sprays)

It's kind of a pain in the arse to have to lug all 6 buckets to the curb, in addition to the trash cans on collection day.

Even worse, every now and then, there is some problem at the recycling place, and the collection folks just dump it all into the same hopper - which does wonders for the enthusiasm of folks who otherwise try to comply.

....BUT, I know you said it with love ;)

snoofle:

I know you said it with love ;)

I have no love. Only a cold, black lump.

The Vicar:

Plastic bags (being so thin) have different thermodynamics than thicker objects, so unless you recycle them separately from everything else, they start to burn up in the process of being melted down and cause impurities in the end product

Who said anything about recycling?  I sure as hell don't recycle my plastic bags.

The Vicar:

Plastic bags are extremely likely to break free from waste containers because they are sheetlike and lightweight, meaning that even when properly disposed of they can end up as litter

Really?  I haven't notice a large number of plastic bags compared to other types of litter.

The Vicar:

Because they are made from plastic, they keep the things which would ordinarily aid in decomposition (bugs, worms, bacteria) from spreading freely through the organic material landfill, thus making the landfill less efficient

Wow, you didn't read a goddamn thing I said above, did you?  Biodegrading is bad.  And how long do you think bugs, worms and bacteria survive in a modern landfill?  The toxins from decomposing non-plastic and non-glass materials tend to be pretty harsh.

The Vicar:

Plastic bags which get into natural wetlands and rivers tend to get stuck in a single location, and anything which ends up underneath such a bag dies because the bag blocks oxygen/carbon dioxide and sometimes also sunlight. This in turn causes extra stress on the rest of the things living in the water because the decomposition is not offset by more living things in the same area as is usually the case

Which was proven to be utter bullshit.  Plastic bags are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that even hard-core enviro-weenie scientists couldn't make themselves say that getting rid of plastic bags would make a significant impact on wildlife.  It's great marketing for chains like Whole Foods who want the enviro-weenies to think they are doing something.  Personally it makes me sick that my single, small lunch salad is contained in a massive, heavy paper bag instead of a thin and light plastic one.  The paper is also a lot more annoying to carry and the shitty things can't hold any serious weight, so I always end up double-bagged if I buy anything more than lunch.

snoofle:

Even worse, every now and then, there is some problem at the recycling place, and the collection folks just dump it all into the same hopper - which does wonders for the enthusiasm of folks who otherwise try to comply.

snoofle:

Actually, around here, we are required, by law, to separate recyclables into: paper, cardboard, clear bottles, colored bottles, cans and toxic stuff (paint, oil, aerosol sprays)

Hell, you're required by law to do it here, but I just throw my garbage in with a few hundred other peoples' so nobody is going to be able to track it back to me. 

bstorer:

In Washington, DC, the sanitary and storm sewer systems are combined, meaning that when there's a heavy rain, the overflow (i.e., raw effluent) is dumped into the Anacostia river.

Sounds about right for what people call "Little Mexico City". 

morbiuswilters:

Hell, you're required by law to do it here, but I just throw my garbage in with a few hundred other peoples' so nobody is going to be able to track it back to me. 

morbiuswilters:

if I buy anything more than lunch.

And that has happened how many times? Once?

morbiuswilters:

bstorer:

In Washington, DC, the sanitary and storm sewer systems are combined, meaning that when there's a heavy rain, the overflow (i.e., raw effluent) is dumped into the Anacostia river.

Sounds about right for what people call "Little Mexico City". 

Now that's low. We don't have to fear muggers stealing our ID so as to rob us at our home address later. Incidentally, does that even make sense? Are the robbers in Mexico City so indecisive that they cannot pick a house to rob without some outside help?

First Robber: Hey, man. What house should we rob?
Second Robber: I don't know, homes. I can't decide.
First Robber (looking at ID from a recent mugging): It says here that there's some houses over on First Street, ese.
Second Robber: Awesome! Good thing this strategy isn't common, because then the police would know exactly where we plan to strike.

I'm sure you can add your own accents. Most people would go with something out of East LA, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Speedy Gonzales.