So apparently you can now get these...
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@locallunatic said:
@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.
If this is true, it was doomed to failure from the start. In works such as I Am a Strange Loop, Hofstadter explains at great length how any sufficiently expressive set of symbols gains the ability to become self-referential and make paradoxical statements such as "this statement is false." In particular, Principia Mathematica was meticulously designed to avoid the possibility of self-contradiction; but Gödel was able to encode theorems in integers, and find a number corresponding to "the theorem represented by this number is not provable;" thus demonstrating that a system cannot be both complete and consistent.
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@Buttembly Coder said:
This is my biggest problem with Christianity; while most languages have the convention of "signed by default, unsigned requires declaration", ie, short vs unsigned short, apparently they have unsigned as default, and signed requires declaration.
It's all the little gotchas that make coding with it annoying.
You can't complain too much, given what the first "hello world" program produced.
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@Paddles said:
@Buttembly Coder said:
This is my biggest problem with Christianity; while most languages have the convention of "signed by default, unsigned requires declaration", ie, short vs unsigned short, apparently they have unsigned as default, and signed requires declaration.
It's all the little gotchas that make coding with it annoying.
You can't complain too much, given what the first "hello world" program produced.
Yeah, but early versions with plagued with overflow problems..
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@joe.edwards said:
@locallunatic said:
@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.
If this is true, it was doomed to failure from the start. In works such as I Am a Strange Loop, Hofstadter explains at great length how any sufficiently expressive set of symbols gains the ability to become self-referential and make paradoxical statements such as "this statement is false." In particular, Principia Mathematica was meticulously designed to avoid the possibility of self-contradiction; but Gödel was able to encode theorems in integers, and find a number corresponding to "the theorem represented by this number is not provable;" thus demonstrating that a system cannot be both complete and consistent.Pronounced "nah nay".
I happen to have this book:
I recommend you all read it if you haven't already.
Just because the language is a form of logic doesn't mean you can't have contradictions. If that was the case, there would be no computer programming, no math, and no TDWTF.
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@Ben L. said:
I recommend you all read it if you haven't already.
It's okay, but there are way too many asides with the fucking tortoise. Also, it's really drawn-out. I think he covers the same ground over-and-over and if it were more tightly edited it could slimmed down by 30% or so. (Not to mention cutting all of the dialog scenes..)
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Now here's a good book:
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@Ben L. said:
@joe.edwards said:
Ain't gonna happen til they publish it for Kindle.@locallunatic said:
@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.
If this is true, it was doomed to failure from the start. In works such as I Am a Strange Loop, Hofstadter explains at great length how any sufficiently expressive set of symbols gains the ability to become self-referential and make paradoxical statements such as "this statement is false." In particular, Principia Mathematica was meticulously designed to avoid the possibility of self-contradiction; but Gödel was able to encode theorems in integers, and find a number corresponding to "the theorem represented by this number is not provable;" thus demonstrating that a system cannot be both complete and consistent.Pronounced "nah nay".
I happen to have this book:
I recommend you all read it if you haven't already.
Just because the language is a form of logic doesn't mean you can't have contradictions. If that was the case, there would be no computer programming, no math, and no TDWTF.
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@joe.edwards said:
@Ben L. said:
But you can't beat a recalcitrant student into a bloody but deserved pulp with a Kindle, whereas GEB is entirely weighty enough to be a weapon in a board game…I happen to have this book:
Ain't gonna happen til they publish it for Kindle.I recommend you all read it if you haven't already.
Just because the language is a form of logic doesn't mean you can't have contradictions. If that was the case, there would be no computer programming, no math, and no TDWTF.
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@morbiuswilters said:
(*Official definition of Unix epoch, from Bell Labs' 1971 Unix programming manual.)
Still more helpful than the section on system calls which is just "Whoa, look at my hands."
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@morbiuswilters said:
Now here's a good book:
Meh. The fan fiction for GEB is much better. Especially the Achilles/Tortoise slash stuff. I read one where the Tortoise's dick repeatedly halves the distance to Achilles's -- well, needless to say, it was very erotic.
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@bstorer said:
I read one where the Tortoise's dick repeatedly halves the distance to Achilles's -- well, needless to say, it was very erotic.
Which is weird, because the Tortoise is female (according to the author).
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@locallunatic said:
@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.From Wikipedia, this bit of no-doubt-unintentional hilarity: "Lojban can be an intellectual device for creative writing and is deemed to have many potential aspects yet to be discovered or explored."
One assumes lojban is deemed to have these aspects in the way the Democrats attempted to deem a budget passed a few years ago, without actually doing it.
A language that abjures ambiguity seems a poor fit for artistry.
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@FrostCat said:
@locallunatic said:
@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.From Wikipedia, this bit of no-doubt-unintentional hilarity: "Lojban can be an intellectual device for creative writing and is deemed to have many potential aspects yet to be discovered or explored."
One assumes lojban is deemed to have these aspects in the way the Democrats attempted to deem a budget passed a few years ago, without actually doing it.
A language that abjures ambiguity seems a poor fit for artistry.
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@FrostCat said:
@locallunatic said:
This statement, however, is rather frightening: '[T]he true potential of its attitudinal system, for example, is considered unlikely to be drawn out "until and unless we have children raised entirely in a multi-cultural Lojban-speaking environment.'"@drurowin said:
@HardwareGeek said:
@Wikipedia said:
Ah, so it's like Interlingua or Esperanto.Lojban (pronounced locally: [ˈloʒban] ( listen)) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic... The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language)... The main sources of its basic vocabulary were the six (at the time [i.e. 1987]) most widely spoken languages: Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic, chosen to reduce the unfamiliarity or strangeness of the root words to people of diverse linguistic backgrounds.
In this latter goal, it seems to me to have quite failed, at least based on the stuff Ben L posts here. None of them have roots that seem even vaguely familiar. Interlingua may fail more badly for non-Europeans, but I think it comes much closer to achieving its stated goal of being somewhat intelligible to speakers of Romance and educated speakers of other Indoeuropean languages than Lojban does to being not-strange to everyone.
It's worse as those two are trying to invent a language that works like other natural languages. Lojban's main design is that it is supposed to be a logical language, that is one where you can't make ambiguous or illogical statements while being grammatically correct.From Wikipedia, this bit of no-doubt-unintentional hilarity: "Lojban can be an intellectual device for creative writing and is deemed to have many potential aspects yet to be discovered or explored."
One assumes lojban is deemed to have these aspects in the way the Democrats attempted to deem a budget passed a few years ago, without actually doing it.
A language that abjures ambiguity seems a poor fit for artistry.
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@Ben L. said:
la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le selmacygu'e
Apparently my Indian name is "Speaker-to-Aspies", along with Morbs.
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@Ben L. said:
la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le selmacygu'e
That's not proof that art can be created in Lojban, that's proof that English literature can be translated to Lojban.
The really terrifying thing about Lojban is that these people consider having an unambiguous language to be more important than art. For one, who is so frequently misunderstood that they need to invent a new language to prevent it from happening? Second, languages are living things. Part of what makes a language great are the ambiguities. It's the ambiguous nature of English that makes a lot of verbal humor even possible. (How would you have puns or double-entendres in a language with no ambiguity?)
Really, Lojban makes me sad. There was some socially-inept guy who either couldn't express himself well or who was ultra-sensitive to the occasional misunderstandings that arise in English, and so his solution was to suck the joy, humanity, creativity and intelligence out of language and replace it with something sterile. That's weird, and it's depressing.
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@morbiuswilters said:
There was some socially-inept guy who either couldn't express himself well or who was ultra-sensitive to the occasional misunderstandings that arise in English, and so his solution was to suck the joy, humanity, creativity and intelligence out of language and replace it with something sterile.
Actually, it developed from a sociological experiment to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but apparently some people just didn't know when to quit.
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@bstorer said:
I read one where the Tortoise's dick repeatedly halves the distance to Achilles's -- well, needless to say, it was very erotic.
Ah, yes, Xenu's Paradox.
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@bstorer said:
@morbiuswilters said:
Now here's a good book:
Meh. The fan fiction for GEB is much better. Especially the Achilles/Tortoise slash stuff. I read one where the Tortoise's dick repeatedly halves the distance to Achilles's -- well, needless to say, it was very erotic."The first inch took one second. The next half-inch took one half-second. The next quarter-inch took one quarter-second."
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@dhromed said:
No, Newspeak was actually recognisable as having been based on English, so it was actually more intelligible.@morbiuswilters said:
Really, Lojban makes me sad
lojban is 1984 Newspeak?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
I read one where the Tortoise's dick repeatedly halves the distance to Achilles's -- well, needless to say, it was very erotic.
Ah, yes, Xenu's Pair of Dicks.
FTFY
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@drurowin said:
@dhromed said:
No, Newspeak was actually recognisable as having been based on English, so it was actually more intelligible.@morbiuswilters said:
Really, Lojban makes me sad
lojban is 1984 Newspeak?
arbitrary example
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@Ben L. said:
@drurowin said:
@dhromed said:
No, Newspeak was actually recognisable as having been based on English, so it was actually more intelligible.@morbiuswilters said:
Really, Lojban makes me sad
lojban is 1984 Newspeak?
arbitrary exampleThat's awesome, they managed to hide bits from several different languages in the word, and do it in such a way that not a single person who speaks any of those languages is going to know what the fuck you're trying to say.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Ben L. said:
@drurowin said:
@dhromed said:
No, Newspeak was actually recognisable as having been based on English, so it was actually more intelligible.@morbiuswilters said:
Really, Lojban makes me sad
lojban is 1984 Newspeak?
arbitrary exampleThat's awesome, they managed to hide bits from several different languages in the word, and do it in such a way that not a single person who speaks any of those languages is going to know what the fuck you're trying to say.
Mlatu, verata, nikto!
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@dhromed said:
@Ben L. said:
(French: matu — matou)
The french word for cat is chat.
And Matou is tomcat.
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@locallunatic said:
And Matou is tomcat.
Not a terribly commonly used word where I'm from. You just call a cat a cat, and only in specific situations do you refer to one as poes or kater.
Using chat in lojban would have made more sense than matou.
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@dhromed said:
The English word for cat is kitty.@Ben L. said:
(French: matu — matou)
The french word for cat is chat.
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@dhromed said:
The french word for cat is chat.
Don't get me started on those fucking French.Hat is capeau, egg is oeuf, water is eau . . . . It's like they have their own fucking word for everything!
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@El_Heffe said:
Not "scrotum." The scrotum transcends language.@dhromed said:
The french word for cat is chat.
Don't get me started on those fucking French.Hat is capeau, egg is oeuf, water is eau . . . . It's like they have their own fucking word for everything!
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@dhromed said:
Using chat in lojban would have made more sense than matou.
If you are arguing that something would make more sense than the choices made for lojban, that isn't very selective.
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@locallunatic said:
you are arguing that something would make more sense than the choices made for lojban
what have I become
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@dhromed said:
@locallunatic said:
And Matou is tomcat.
Not a terribly commonly used word where I'm from. You just call a cat a cat, and only in specific situations do you refer to one as poes or kater.
Using chat in lojban would have made more sense than matou.
That's quite interesting because:
- the word is mlatu
- h is not a letter in lojban
- c is pronounced "sh" in lojban
- ou is an illegal letter sequence in lojban. The closest thing to it would be "au" which is pronounced h"ow"
If you want to name your mlatu "cat" (pronounced "shat"), go right ahead.
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@bstorer said:
@El_Heffe said:
Not "scrotum." The scrotum transcends language.@dhromed said:
The french word for cat is chat.
Don't get me started on those fucking French.Hat is capeau, egg is oeuf, water is eau . . . . It's like they have their own fucking word for everything!
gahnt uh DAH klee
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@Ben L. said:
@bstorer said:
I said it transcends language; not that it transcends pathetic-bullshit-designed-by-and-for-the-sort-of-hopeless-attention-seeking-near-human-that-would-have-been-left-on-a-mountainside-to-die-if-this-were-a-perfect-world-but-noooo-instead-we-have-to-be-tolerant-of-their-differences-no-mater-how-fucking-awful-they-are-thanks-a-lot-obama.@El_Heffe said:
Not "scrotum." The scrotum transcends language.@dhromed said:
The french word for cat is chat.
Don't get me started on those fucking French.Hat is capeau, egg is oeuf, water is eau . . . . It's like they have their own fucking word for everything!
gahnt uh DAH klee
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@bstorer said:
I said it transcends language; not that it transcends pathetic-bullshit-designed-by-and-for-the-sort-of-hopeless-attention-seeking-near-human-that-would-have-been-left-on-a-mountainside-to-die-if-this-were-a-perfect-world-but-noooo-instead-we-have-to-be-tolerant-of-their-differences-no-mater-how-fucking-awful-they-are-thanks-a-lot-obama.
Oh, and I guess now you want to borrow my gas chamber?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.I said it transcends language; not that it transcends pathetic-bullshit-designed-by-and-for-the-sort-of-hopeless-attention-seeking-near-human-that-would-have-been-left-on-a-mountainside-to-die-if-this-were-a-perfect-world-but-noooo-instead-we-have-to-be-tolerant-of-their-differences-no-mater-how-fucking-awful-they-are-thanks-a-lot-obama.
Oh, and I guess now you want to borrow my gas chamber?
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@bstorer said:
Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.
Fine, I'm taking my Nova and going home.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.
Fine, I'm taking my Nova and going home.
When you get home, remember to close the garage door.
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@Lorne Kates said:
Not necessary if he hooks up the garden hose before he goes.@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
When you get home, remember to close the garage door.Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.
Fine, I'm taking my Nova and going home.
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@HardwareGeek said:
@Lorne Kates said:
Not necessary if he hooks up the garden hose before he goes.@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
When you get home, remember to close the garage door.Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.
Fine, I'm taking my Nova and going home.
You people are hateful. I'm taking my balls and going home.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@HardwareGeek said:
FTFY@Lorne Kates said:
Not necessary if he hooks up the garden hose before he goes.@morbiuswilters said:
@bstorer said:
When you get home, remember to close the garage door.Your "gas chamber" is a Chevy Nova and a length of garden hose. I'm pretty sure I can gin up something similar without your help if need be.
Fine, I'm taking my Nova and going home.
You people are hateful. I'm taking my
ballsscrotum and going home.
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@morbiuswilters said:
You people are hateful.
Aw, he likes us.
