In League of Legends, there are advantages to playing a less-popular Champion like that awesome steampunk transhumanist, Viktor the Machine Herald. For one, nobody else ever clicks Viktor before I do, so I get to specialize instead of having to learn half a dozen alts. For another, none of my opponents have had much practice fighting a Viktor.

On the downside, good advice on playing him is hard to find.

Especially when the database server at solomid.net is down, and the PHP scripts are publicly dumping the stack traces.

... Does anyone pick a different passive item upgrade other then the beam DoT one?

... Did you look up Trundle on the site, by any chance?

Hearing people say bad stuff about LoL has put me off from wanting to try any DotA sequel. (Of which there are at least three by completely separate developers, wtf?)

I really enjoy LoL.  My wife complains about how much I play it...

MiffTheFox:

Hearing people say bad stuff about LoL has put me off from wanting to try any DotA sequel. (Of which there are at least three by completely separate developers, wtf?)

DOTA2 is inscrutable and full of assholes.

But I never played the original DOTA, so maybe they're all inscrutable to me, I dunno. The assholes are inexcusable though.

MiffTheFox:

Hearing people say bad stuff about LoL has put me off from wanting to try any DotA sequel. (Of which there are at least three by completely separate developers, wtf?)

LoL is great in that if you roll a new account, you'll be thrown in a game with 9 other newbies. It's also great in how forgiving it is. DotA 2 has moves that stun's/CC's a champion for 3-6 seconds if I hear my stories correctly. That's incredibly frustrating gameplay. LoL is incredibly forgiving in comparison, and that's not a bad thing (Though some people prefer a riskier game).

While there are idiots who can ruin the fun every few games at summoner level 30, you need to win like 100-200 games to get to the max summoner level. Until then, you'll be playing against people your own summoner level, which are generally more tame.

 

blakeyrat:

MiffTheFox:

Hearing people say bad stuff about LoL has put me off from wanting to try any DotA sequel. (Of which there are at least three by completely separate developers, wtf?)

DOTA2 is inscrutable and full of assholes.

But I never played the original DOTA, so maybe they're all inscrutable to me, I dunno. The assholes are inexcusable though.

This guy has an explanation: the game mechanics are not just different than what anyone normal is used to, but moreover are structured such that n00bs are not just worthless on the team, but their existence is massive liability which actively contributes to the enemy's victory. Frustration, anger, yelling, and abuse all ensue.

(Explanation, not excuse.)

 

fennec:

This guy has an explanation: the game mechanics are not just different than what anyone normal is used to, but moreover are structured such that n00bs are not just worthless on the team, but their existence is massive liability which actively contributes to the enemy's victory. Frustration, anger, yelling, and abuse all ensue.

(Explanation, not excuse.)

I dove into LoL without ever playing a MOBA-style game for longer then an hour, and had a pleasent experience. I did well some games, I lost some games.

For newbies, only 10~ champions are available for free each week (The champions change each week, with the option to purchase any champion with ingame currency or real money). This means Level 1 summoners only have to learn 10 champions for their first week, with the odd one out being purchased. This is not a random rotation, many champions are common in the free champion roster, with the difficult-to-play champions rarely entering the rotation, while the easy-to-pickup champions frequent the free champion roster.

After 300+ wins of LoL and being able to play it with confidence, I gave DOTA 2 a try, and just couldn't put up with it. It's not a skill thing, but as the quoted article explains, you have no time to learn. Stuff just happens, and then your dead. I expected my LoL experience to help, but I may as well be a new player. I'm actually scared of playing DOTA 2 because when I do, my new-ness to the game effects four other people, and can easily throw the game.

Disables and damage levels are more stable in LoL then in DOTA. You'll be hard pressed to find a stun longer then 1.5/2 seconds, with most being ults.

Items are also easier to pickup, with a focus on general progression for attack, magic damage, or defense, rather then a ton of active/passive effect items that just increase the ammount of buttons you need to press, you can logically progress your champion through the game similar to most RPG's. LoL offers items like this as well, but they're not usually listed as recommended and they only come into play at the endgame.

"Feeding" is still in the game, but no-where near as bad. Dying players don't lose gold, ganking is less brutal, and ranged heroes and attacks are toned down a touch in general, so it's not a challenge to play a melee hero. 

Can someone who actually plays MOBA games explain to me why they still use RTS control schemes? I understand that it started life as a RTS mod, but when I was playing DOTA2 the one thing that drive me batty was, why the holy shit do I have to do the "click to move" bullshit instead of being able to control my character directly? It's not like I'm controlling 27 guys at once. I don't get that.

I get the sense that it's the kind of game where most of the difficulty is the controls are weird and hard to use.

Monday Night Combat (And Super Monday Night Combat) are MOBA games that are First-Person Shooters. Personally though, the top down perspective helps with competitive multiplayer games. There are three lanes* to worry about, and if you can only check one at a time, that takes away a lot of the "Tactical" gameplay. Or entices more tactical gameplay, depending how you look at it.

The real reason? Companies found a Game mode that works so well, and they don't need to worry about copyright issues, because no rights are reserved. Companies don't need to make risks changing the gameplay style, they know this just -works-.

*I really wish someone would have the balls to introduce a MOBA game where the primary map isn't the same damn map from DOTA

blakeyrat:

Can someone who actually plays MOBA games explain to me why they still use RTS control schemes? I understand that it started life as a RTS mod, but when I was playing DOTA2 the one thing that drive me batty was, why the holy shit do I have to do the "click to move" bullshit instead of being able to control my character directly? It's not like I'm controlling 27 guys at once. I don't get that.

I get the sense that it's the kind of game where most of the difficulty is the controls are weird and hard to use.

I definitely prefer it over a FPS type MOBA game such as the previously mentioned Monday Night Combat.  Are you suggesting that or a top-down view where you have to use the keys to move your guy?

Sutherlands:

I definitely prefer it over a FPS type MOBA game such as the previously mentioned Monday Night Combat. Are you suggesting that or a top-down view where you have to use the keys to move your guy?

I would prefer something where 1) the pathfinding isn't fucking stupid as fuck, and 2) you can't get your camera 573 miles away from your character and get lost and send them a move command (using fucking stupid pathfinding) 68 miles away-- or accidentally select a mule (which you can do for some reason in DOTA2) and then spend the next 5 minutes trying to figure out why your guy won't move at all.

I'm not sure what the controls would look like. As for first-person, why not have it as an option? Monday Night Combat is a, meh, ok game. But maybe that's not the end-all, be-all.

I really feel like these companies are just blindly copying the original without spending even 65 milliseconds thinking about how they could make the interface better. Because what I have right now is RTS controls applied to something that most certainly is NOT an RTS, and it's a bad fit, and it adds to the inscrutable nature of the already confusing game.

BTW that review Fennec posted is excellent and so right. Even now, months later, all of those tutorial modes in DOTA2 are still placeholders. Hah!

blakeyrat:

I would prefer something where 1) the pathfinding isn't fucking stupid as fuck, and 2) you can't get your camera 573 miles away from your character and get lost and send them a move command (using fucking stupid pathfinding) 68 miles away-- or accidentally select a mule (which you can do for some reason in DOTA2) and then spend the next 5 minutes trying to figure out why your guy won't move at all.

#1 is the only problem with LoL.  For #2, you can hit space and it will center on your character (and obviously you can't select a mule).

blakeyrat:

I'm not sure what the controls would look like. As for first-person, why not have it as an option? Monday Night Combat is a, meh, ok game. But maybe that's not the end-all, be-all.

It would take a lot of development for what would probably be a subpar feature.  Maybe it would work for some champs, but it's hard to place Veigar's stun right on someone in first person mode, or to use Ezrael's blink to where you want to go.  Also hard to check on other parts of the map.  I think it would need it's own game in order to have it.

blakeyrat:

I really feel like these companies are just blindly copying the original without spending even 65 milliseconds thinking about how they could make the interface better. Because what I have right now is RTS controls applied to something that most certainly is NOT an RTS, and it's a bad fit, and it adds to the inscrutable nature of the already confusing game.

More like RPG.  Aren't they the same controls that Diablo and the like use?

blakeyrat:

Can someone who actually plays MOBA games explain to me why they still use RTS control schemes? I understand that it started life as a RTS mod, but when I was playing DOTA2 the one thing that drive me batty was, why the holy shit do I have to do the "click to move" bullshit instead of being able to control my character directly? It's not like I'm controlling 27 guys at once. I don't get that.

 

Well, for starters, you actually can control multiple guys at once, depending on which hero you're playing. The entire schtick behind Chen in Dota 2 is that he can take control of jungle creeps, for example.

More to the point, though, it has gameplay implications beyond just how you control the game. You can pan around the map at any time and see what's going on on the other side of the map (provided your team has vision), which would be difficult to implement with a different control scheme. You can't move and attack at the same time, which affects the dynamics of how enemies can interact (most importantly in how attackers can chase their targets). Additionally, your character can only move, attack, and cast spells in the direction they're facing, and there's a slight turnaround time, which means you often have to commit to certain courses of action because the turnaround time would put you at a disadvantage.

 

 

blakeyrat:

Can someone who actually plays MOBA games explain to me why they still use RTS control schemes? I understand that it started life as a RTS mod, but when I was playing DOTA2 . . .

I like to use the YNXO control scheme playing D34Xy but when I jock XM42j I find the AWDDQSLOD input scheme to be so yolly.

Since I like to play LOL, and playing with people is more fun, my username is Sutherlands (OMG!).  Feel free to add me and let me know who you are.

blakeyrat:

Can someone who actually plays MOBA games explain to me why they still use RTS control schemes? I understand that it started life as a RTS mod, but when I was playing DOTA2 the one thing that drive me batty was, why the holy shit do I have to do the "click to move" bullshit instead of being able to control my character directly? It's not like I'm controlling 27 guys at once. I don't get that.

I get the sense that it's the kind of game where most of the difficulty is the controls are weird and hard to use.

Some characters require more than one unit to be controlled during the game. There are pet summons that you must micromanage to have them add any value at all. This is also why when you click on a mule you lose control of your character - you are controlling the mule instead, so you can control it and have it transfer your items or whatever a mule does. I'm guessing this is the reason why they are still using an RTS control scheme. In most games however (not dota 1), if you click on a non-controllable unit, you do not lose control of your character.

League of Legends has made it somewhat easier so you do not need to control pets. For example, a pet will attack any unit you attack, but critics say there is not enough control with this scheme and the AIs are stupid.

OhNoDevelopment:

League of Legends has made it somewhat easier so you do not need to control pets. For example, a pet will attack any unit you attack, but critics say there is not enough control with this scheme and the AIs are stupid.

Actually for those champions with pets, if you shift-right-click, it will move the pet or cause it to attack what you click on.

OhNoDevelopment:

League of Legends has made it somewhat easier so you do not need to control pets. For example, a pet will attack any unit you attack, but critics say there is not enough control with this scheme and the AIs are stupid.

I believe this is a bit better IMO, interaction between a players pets via combat actions you do (Ie, Zyra's plants or Heimer's turret), as opposed to seperate orders feels a little more fitting for a MOBA-style game. Then again, that's a matter of opinion.

Sutherlands:

OhNoDevelopment:

League of Legends has made it somewhat easier so you do not need to control pets. For example, a pet will attack any unit you attack, but critics say there is not enough control with this scheme and the AIs are stupid.

Actually for those champions with pets, if you shift-right-click, it will move the pet or cause it to attack what you click on.

Most pets you cannot control. As mentioned, Zyra's plants and Heimerdinger's turrets. Malzahar's voidling and Elise's spiders also come to mind.