Apple Fail
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@serguey123 said:
@serguey123 said:Last time I used it looked like winamp, I don't know if that is good or not
Judging by that, I say you used it circa mid-2000s. YOu will be pleased to know that it now looks like a proper antivirus program.I do, but apparently you and the people who designed the UI didn't. Excuse me for being a person that notice shitty UI's
@dhromed said:
It's a fucking icon in my fucking
traynotification area and I fucking never look at the motherfucking thing.So you never opened it? That explain so much.
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@serguey123 said:
I can't be bewildered about the UI?
No, you can't. It's just a couple of graphical tabs and backgrounds and buttons. That does not a shitty UI make, and what bewilders me is that you didn't even mention things like how well it protects or how much system resources it consumes, you know, things that are important.
But. It looks a little like Winamp, I guess, except for the orange. So. Obviously it's a shit program. Don't use it. That's fine. That is not at all a stunningly lopsided perspective. Nope.
Again, Fuck.
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@Shinhan7 said:
I can't be arsed to allocate the time for reinstalling the OS at work, but I really hate Unity and the new Gnome.
They're fucking awful, aren't they? You used to be able to select "Gnome Classic" as the desktop which would just give you Gnome 2.
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@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Really? Why? Or does it just "feel that way" and you really have no fucking clue what you are talking about?
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@dhromed said:
It's just a couple of graphical tabs and backgrounds and buttons
To you maybe, to me its eye cancer
@dhromed said:
how well it protects
I have never been infected with malware, even when I had no antivirus software installed, however the version I tried failed to find some I had
stashedaround so I guess not that good.@dhromed said:
how much system resources it consumes
Barely none, at least the version I tried years ago, the worst offender at this was McAffee, I will not be surprised if still is.
@dhromed said:
things that are important
If you can be arsed to provide a good UI then I suspect that your program is shit, why risk an infection to prove it?
@dhromed said:
Obviously it's a shit program
Obviously, all programs that look like shit are shit. Program that don't look like shit are probably shit but require further inquiry. Software quality in general is shit-tastic
Thunderbyte FTW ;)
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@mott555 said:
WTF #2 is why would the devs just let the OS lock up instead of informing me that my WPA2 password was entered incorrectly?
That's the Linux way.
@mott555 said:
Nothing personal against you, I'm just sick of people on this forum and others (mostly on others) telling me how friendly and helpful the Linux community is and I've never been able to find this "friendly and helpful" subset before.
I could have told you that. Linux users fall into two groups: cranky old Unix guys and (this is becoming more and more common) Linux noobs who want to feel special or like they are "sticking it to the man" (ASheridan falls into this category). The former know enough to help but don't want to; the latter don't know enough to help but assume that getting through a single install of Ubuntu makes them an expert who can condescend to anyone who has trouble. The Linux community is a joke.
For reference, I started using Linux 14 years ago used it as my only OS for a decade now. I've written kernel code, debugged a variety of issues, administered hundreds and hundreds of Linux servers, compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count.. I think it's a good server and embedded OS for when you have technical experts to handle things but the quality of the desktop is crap, even though it is significantly improved from 14 years ago. I don't participate in the community; I've never asked a question but I've seen countless forums where a simple technical question was answered with arrogance and scorn.
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@morbiuswilters said:
compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count..
21?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@mott555 said:
Nothing personal against you, I'm just sick of people on this forum and others (mostly on others) telling me how friendly and helpful the Linux community is and I've never been able to find this "friendly and helpful" subset before.
I could have told you that. Linux users fall into two groups: cranky old Unix guys and (this is becoming more and more common) Linux noobs who want to feel special or like they are "sticking it to the man" (ASheridan falls into this category). The former know enough to help but don't want to; the latter don't know enough to help but assume that getting through a single install of Ubuntu makes them an expert who can condescend to anyone who has trouble. The Linux community is a joke.
You missed a group, the overworked college prof. who only knows what he's doing half the time and your problem is never in his knowledge base.
I watched one of these "sudo rm -rf /" in the middle of a Linux+ cert prep class. He was adamant that the kernel would protect itself. It didn't. He paled, then he cursed. I laughed, then I cried.
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@Sutherlands said:
@morbiuswilters said:
compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count..
21?Mean.
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@Sutherlands said:
@morbiuswilters said:
compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count..
21?
22, but then I got arrested.
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@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Wow.
I think even the most fervent drool-stuck-on-the-lips bearded Unix fan would admit Windows 7 memory management blows all Unix-esque OSes' memory management out of the water. Assuming they knew anything at all about it which, of course, they don't.
You're not trolling; I believe that. But I think it's safe you say you're wrong.
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@blakeyrat said:
@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Wow.
I think even the most fervent drool-stuck-on-the-lips bearded Unix fan would admit Windows 7 memory management blows all Unix-esque OSes' memory management out of the water. Assuming they knew anything at all about it which, of course, they don't.
You're not trolling; I believe that. But I think it's safe you say you're wrong.
The Linux kernel itself is actually pretty good at memory management (it's probably one of its strongest features). What I know about NT memory management is horribly out-of-date so I can't comment on Windows 7. I'd love to know more about what makes Windows 7 memory management superior. However, I think he's full of shit because he decided to lump all Unixes together.
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@morbiuswilters said:
I'd love to know more about what makes Windows 7 memory management superior.
The predictive cache is the big thing.
Come to think of it, though, that doesn't really help a server at all, so I guess if you're in the "only servers exist!" mindset maybe that explains some of the delusion.
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@blakeyrat said:
The predictive cache is the big thing.
True, that's pretty useful.
@blakeyrat said:
Come to think of it, though, that doesn't really help a server at all, so I guess if you're in the "only servers exist!" mindset maybe that explains some of the delusion.
I do think Linux is great on servers and that development effort should be focused there, not on the desktop. The difference is I realize that Linux makes a crappy desktop and I don't expect people to enjoy using it. Most people are better off using Windows.
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Heh. I've read some complains about Windows from linux users, and a lot of them are easily addressed by clicking around in the GUI or just searching from the start menu. Usually go on about not being able to change something simple in Windows that they can simply modify 50 lines in their X.conf to change on linux. I've concluded that some linux fans just aren't very good with computers and don't value their time. So it's anyone's guess what they could be doing to "crash" their computer every day.
Heh. Probably have some rediculous device they soldered together to melt plastic and reform it shorting out their motherboard...
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@pauly said:
Heh. I've read some complains about Windows from linux users, and a lot of them are easily addressed by clicking around in the GUI or just searching from the start menu. Usually go on about not being able to change something simple in Windows that they can simply modify 50 lines in their X.conf to change on linux.
There is a persistent belief in the Linux community that, because you don't have the source to Windows, it's not very configurable. And, sure, having the source makes Linux very configurable, but it's not like those people are going to be modifying source anyway.
There are also the "power users" who feel that a window manager that supports a mouse or any effects at all is "too bloated" so they spend all day in ratpoison. These people can be very productive in their chosen environment, but they tend to be a bit nuts.
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@ASheridan said:
Boom, it's getting harder and harder to have this open on my computer at work without people wondering why I've got "wank" written dozens of times down the side in large font, stop tagging everything with it! You're pushing it to the top of the tag cloud damn you!
Use Opera or Chrome, it'll say wank then.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@pauly said:
Heh. I've read some complains about Windows from linux users, and a lot of them are easily addressed by clicking around in the GUI or just searching from the start menu. Usually go on about not being able to change something simple in Windows that they can simply modify 50 lines in their X.conf to change on linux.
There is a persistent belief in the Linux community that, because you don't have the source to Windows, it's not very configurable. And, sure, having the source makes Linux very configurable, but it's not like those people are going to be modifying source anyway.
There are also the "power users" who feel that a window manager that supports a mouse or any effects at all is "too bloated" so they spend all day in ratpoison. These people can be very productive in their chosen environment, but they tend to be a bit nuts.
I had never heard of ratpoison, but when I read the first sentence on the website, it pretty much told me all I needed to know:
@http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/ said:
Ratpoison is a simple Window Manager with no fat library dependencies, no fancy graphics, no window decorations, and no rodent dependence.
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@Douglasac said:
Symantec stuff isn't that bad... I got a copy of Endpoint Protection (11 I think) from my uni for free and so far the only thing it's done that I don't approve of is complain about Snadboy's Revelation (which Malwarebytes also does, and every other malware scanner). Both agreed the other week that there was nothing nasty on my system.
One of our clients has Symantec Endpoint Protection on their computers (managed by their central IT somewhere in the US), and we've had the pleasure of removing crap off their machine several times already. It might not be noticeable, but that's a bit too unnoticeable for my taste.
My current favorite is MS Security Essentials, and I don't mind TrendMicro Worry-Free/OfficeScan too much either (though the previous version seems better to me than the current one; their desktop AV is crap however).
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@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Two words: OOM killer.
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@ender said:
@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Two words: OOM killer.Haha, good point. I forgot about that gigantic WTF in the corner of the room.
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@ender said:
@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Two words: OOM killer.I'm not sure why that's a negative. The OOM killer is quite nice at stopping run-away processes. Most apps don't handle failed mallocs, so they're just going to segfault anyway when the system runs out of memory. If you don't want to be affected by the OOM killer, just enable a lot of swap. Personally I never use swap and prefer to have a rogue process killed rather than letting it grind my system to a halt by consuming all the swap it can.
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@ASheridan said:
Nope, I use Windows at work every day and Linux at home. The specs of the machine are similar, although I a wider variety of things on my machine at home. The Windows build is fairly new (less than a year old Win7 build) and my OS at home is Fedora 14 (comparitively old by Linux standards) and guess which one I have more crashes/freezes on? That's right, it's your lovely Windows. Kinda blows your argument out a bit doesn't it. The only way I could use this Windows machine every day and not have problems with it is if I don't actually do much work or just severely slow down my output. As far as I'm concerned, if the computer can't keep up with some simple work that I'm doing, then there's a problem.
I'll counter your anecdote with another: at my previous employer my windows 7 box never crashed. VS2008 would periodically (but much less than vs2005.. enough to say infrequently). The only time that machine restarted was updates and power outtages. Woahh... totally blew your arguement out of the.. wait it's just another annecdote.
My mac has been reliable for the most part (couple crashes in the past 3 years.. i.e. mac sad face), but I don't use xcode. My linux laptop? Never crashed, though sometime to get the wireless to work I'd have to resort to a full reboot (when ifup/down didn't work). Damn Broadcom piece of shit. Tried to swap it for an intel wireless card, but it wouldn't run on that AMD board/proc combo.
My windows 7 box at home? It doesn't crash but aero doesn't work anymore and MS couldn't figure it out (would boot to black screen with it enabled). Last suggestion was an "in-place upgrade" which I don't have time to mess around with. I disabled aero, which is fine.
The only thing that is consistent is that I have had problems with every computer I've ever had, regardless of OS. They never work perfectly. Had my wireless been better on the linux laptop it would have been the best by a bit, but it took many months to tweak it to what I wanted.
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@dubbreak said:
though sometime to get the wireless to work I'd have to resort to a full reboot (when ifup/down didn't work). Damn Broadcom piece of shit.
Hilariously, I have this same problem, too, with an Intel Ultimate-N 6300. Sometimes it's just like "Motherfucker, I will not connect to any more networks". Even unloading and reloading the kernel module doesn't help. Are you running Ubuntu? I think it's just Ubuntu's craptastic network manager, although it may be a kernel issue.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@ender said:
@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Two words: OOM killer.I'm not sure why that's a negative.
Are you kidding? It's Linux, so it must be! Though ender was terse enough that it's not totally certain that he was citing it as a negative. I was waiting for a great rant about the awfulness of the OOM killer, because my thoughts were similar to yours, though I'm not sure I've had any first hand experience with it.
Also, you don't need reasons when you have ignorance on your side.
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@Anketam said:
Haiku?Ok... so people slam Windows, Linux, and Apple. Is there any operating system out there that people are not slamming for one reason or another?
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@boomzilla said:
Are you kidding? It's Linux, so it must be! Though ender was terse enough that it's not totally certain that he was citing it as a negative. I was waiting for a great rant about the awfulness of the OOM killer, because my thoughts were similar to yours, though I'm not sure I've had any first hand experience with it.
My first-hand experience with OOM killer is that it'll kill vital stuff before getting to the actual memory hog, so by the time that's killed (assuming it gets to it at all), you pretty much have no other option but to reboot the machine anyway. I understand that due to the system differences, Linux pretty much can't work any differently, but in my experience, it also performs much worse than Windows in low memory situations (when swap is being hit heavily, in my experience Windows stays much more responsive than Linux).
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@ender said:
but in my experience, it also performs much worse than Windows in low memory situations (when swap is being hit heavily, in my experience Windows stays much more responsive than Linux).
That's true, once Linux starts swapping hard you're screwed (one of the reasons I don't run with swap). Linux isn't very oriented towards low-latency desktop operation; its strong suit is high-throughput server operation or real-time embedded work.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@ender said:
but in my experience, it also performs much worse than Windows in low memory situations (when swap is being hit heavily, in my experience Windows stays much more responsive than Linux).
That's true, once Linux starts swapping hard you're screwed (one of the reasons I don't run with swap). Linux isn't very oriented towards low-latency desktop operation; its strong suit is high-throughput server operation or real-time embedded work.
You can tune Linux a bit in this regard. As root you can do:
echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness
echo 25 > /proc/sys/vm/vfs_cache_pressure
There are a bunch of virtual memory controls under there.
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@Gazzonyx said:
@Anketam said:
Not sure what you mean. How is Haiku related? Is it an OS?
Haiku?Ok... so people slam Windows, Linux, and Apple. Is there any operating system out there that people are not slamming for one reason or another?
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@Sutherlands said:
@Gazzonyx said:
@Anketam said:
Not sure what you mean. How is Haiku related? Is it an OS?
Haiku?Ok... so people slam Windows, Linux, and Apple. Is there any operating system out there that people are not slamming for one reason or another?
Yeah. Haiku OS. It's supposedly awesomesauce. Everything in the OS is multithreaded.
Check out the review.
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@Gazzonyx said:
Everything in the OS is multithreaded.
I don't follow. What does Haiku multithread that any other modern OS doesn't?
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@Gazzonyx said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@ender said:
but in my experience, it also performs much worse than Windows in low memory situations (when swap is being hit heavily, in my experience Windows stays much more responsive than Linux).
That's true, once Linux starts swapping hard you're screwed (one of the reasons I don't run with swap). Linux isn't very oriented towards low-latency desktop operation; its strong suit is high-throughput server operation or real-time embedded work.
You can tune Linux a bit in this regard. As root you can do:
echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness
echo 25 > /proc/sys/vm/vfs_cache_pressure
There are a bunch of virtual memory controls under there.I'm aware but I don't use any swap so swappiness is useless. And why are you decreasing vfs_cache_pressure? That's just going to make your swap problems worse.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Gazzonyx said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@ender said:
but in my experience, it also performs much worse than Windows in low memory situations (when swap is being hit heavily, in my experience Windows stays much more responsive than Linux).
That's true, once Linux starts swapping hard you're screwed (one of the reasons I don't run with swap). Linux isn't very oriented towards low-latency desktop operation; its strong suit is high-throughput server operation or real-time embedded work.
You can tune Linux a bit in this regard. As root you can do:
echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness
echo 25 > /proc/sys/vm/vfs_cache_pressure
There are a bunch of virtual memory controls under there.I'm aware but I don't use any swap so swappiness is useless. And why are you decreasing vfs_cache_pressure? That's just going to make your swap problems worse.
Guideline: if you have to think about any of this shit for more than a millisecond, your memory manager is fail.
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@blakeyrat said:
Guideline: if you have to think about any of this shit for more than a millisecond, your memory manager is fail.
I basically agree that the tunables aren't that useful or necessary. You really don't have to worry about this stuff, though; you really shouldn't be swapping in the first place.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@ASheridan said:
Not trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Really? Why? Or does it just "feel that way" and you really have no fucking clue what you are talking about?
Of course you're right, I bow to your knowlege oh Morbius-fucking-Wilters, because clearly I know nothing compared to you. Oh wait, I do, so fuck off.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@mott555 said:
It's not the Linux way, clearly you don't know what the hell you're talking about.WTF #2 is why would the devs just let the OS lock up instead of informing me that my WPA2 password was entered incorrectly?
That's the Linux way.
@morbiuswilters said:
I could have told you that. Linux users fall into two groups: cranky old Unix guys and (this is becoming more and more common) Linux noobs who want to feel special or like they are "sticking it to the man" (ASheridan falls into this category). The former know enough to help but don't want to; the latter don't know enough to help but assume that getting through a single install of Ubuntu makes them an expert who can condescend to anyone who has trouble. The Linux community is a joke.
I actually laughed at this. I've been using Linux from years and I've used loads of distros in my time, from Suse and Fedora, to Debian and Mint. I'm not "sticking it to the man", in-fact I don't really think you know what you're talking about. I use it because it works better for me, it lets me do what I need and doesn't get in my way by limiting my choices.
@morbiuswilters said:
For reference, I started using Linux 14 years ago used it as my only OS for a decade now. I've written kernel code, debugged a variety of issues, administered hundreds and hundreds of Linux servers, compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count..
So, you've written code for Linux have you? And your view of the "Linux way" is to lock up on error. Wow, I'd hate to come across any code you've written.@morbiuswilters said:
I think it's a good server and embedded OS for when you have technical experts to handle things but the quality of the desktop is crap, even though it is significantly improved from 14 years ago. I don't participate in the community; I've never asked a question but I've seen countless forums where a simple technical question was answered with arrogance and scorn.
For every forum post you can find arguing your point, I can find one arguing mine. I still think your experience of the Linux community is down to the respect you give people, which is basically shit.
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@Sutherlands said:
@morbiuswilters said:
compiled the kernel and glibc more times than I can count..
21?LOL!
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@blakeyrat said:
@ASheridan said:
I can accept that I may be wrongNot trolling here, but I do think that memory management is better in Unix-based operating systems like Linux and MacOS.
Wow.
I think even the most fervent drool-stuck-on-the-lips bearded Unix fan would admit Windows 7 memory management blows all Unix-esque OSes' memory management out of the water. Assuming they knew anything at all about it which, of course, they don't.
You're not trolling; I believe that. But I think it's safe you say you're wrong.
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I'll admit it sure, I won't be a cunt to others and shout them down just because they've got a valid point. I'm only a cunt to cunts.
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@ASheridan said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@mott555 said:
It's not the Linux way, clearly you don't know what the hell you're talking about.WTF #2 is why would the devs just let the OS lock up instead of informing me that my WPA2 password was entered incorrectly?
That's the Linux way.
Yes it is. Sixth paragraph.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Gazzonyx said:
Everything in the OS is multithreaded.
I don't follow. What does Haiku multithread that any other modern OS doesn't?
I have to look into it again, but IIRC everything in was built to run in its own thread. I think it has some kind of tweaked scheduler/threading model for handling this. I am talking out of my butt, though, since I haven't even looked at the project in two years. Take what I say with a grain of salt.
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The excerpt you pointed out was to do with feedback, as in no output if it's done everything correctly. In the case of a wireless adaptor freezing the entire system, well, that's not a feedback issue, and if it was just a case of zero feedback, that's still not the Linux way because it was not a successful action.
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@ASheridan said:
The excerpt you pointed out was to do with feedback, as in no output if it's done everything correctly. In the case of a wireless adaptor freezing the entire system, well, that's not a feedback issue, and if it was just a case of zero feedback, that's still not the Linux way because it was not a successful action.
Comprehension fail on my part then.
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@Gazzonyx said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@Gazzonyx said:
Everything in the OS is multithreaded.
I don't follow. What does Haiku multithread that any other modern OS doesn't?
I have to look into it again, but IIRC everything in was built to run in its own thread. I think it has some kind of tweaked scheduler/threading model for handling this. I am talking out of my butt, though, since I haven't even looked at the project in two years. Take what I say with a grain of salt.It's BeOS.
Just say "it's BeOS" and instantly everybody knows all they need to know about it. And if you don't know anything about BeOS, and you work in IT, shame on you.
Sheesh.
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@ASheridan said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@mott555 said:
It's not the Linux way, clearly you don't know what the hell you're talking about.WTF #2 is why would the devs just let the OS lock up instead of informing me that my WPA2 password was entered incorrectly?
That's the Linux way.
Yes, the Linux Way is to produce mediocre software that does stuff like lock up instead of handling errors properly.
@ASheridan said:
I use it because it works better for me, it lets me do what I need and doesn't get in my way by limiting my choices.
Linux doesn't limit your choices? I mean, I guess if your choice is Tux Racer, then sure. Otherwise it's less compatible than Windows or even OSX. Or by "choices" do you mean "running an ass-ugly tiling window manager"?
@ASheridan said:
So, you've written code for Linux have you? And your view of the "Linux way" is to lock up on error. Wow, I'd hate to come across any code you've written.
I never said that was what I did, I simply pointed out that since a lot of Linux code is mediocre and doesn't handle edge cases very well. (And in this case I mean the entire OS, desktop apps down. The kernel is the least shitty part whereas a lot of the desktop stuff is seriously flawed.)
@ASheridan said:
For every forum post you can find arguing your point, I can find one arguing mine.
That's because I don't care enough about your ignorant opinions to bother looking. The bulk of the Linux community has its head up its ass.
@ASheridan said:
I still think your experience of the Linux community is down to the respect you give people, which is basically shit.
Are you blind or something? I said I've never participated in forums so my attitude is irrelevant. This is what I've seen happen to other people and it's all-too-common. And, no, I don't respect people who act retarded, such as yourself. Respect should be earned.
In summary: you and your post perfectly represent everything that is wrong with Linux. You are mostly ignorant and belligerent; you believe that a mediocre showing is "good enough" and see no reason to improve it; you are obsessed with software "getting in your way by limiting choices" even though Linux excludes you from most choices a rational person would want to make--at least you have your choice of 20 different terminal emulators; and finally you simply refuse to see the Linux community as the petty, acrimonious bunch of social malcontents it is. By refusing to address this you are not helping the Linux desktop.
On a personal note: you seem to be suffering from some kind of psychological issues relating to me. I suggest counseling so you can avoid sputtering with rage every time you see me. There are surely social service centers in your area that will charge on a sliding scale if you meet their financial requirements.
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