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But it wasn't there last night!

Last post 03-26-2012 7:49 PM by heterodox. 137 replies.
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  • 03-22-2012 6:42 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Douglasac:
    In South Australia, once you pass your driving test, the driving instructor has a list of things that she\he has to explain to you before they can let you go with your piece of paper which you trade in along with a sum of money for a Probationary License. The last thing on the list is "Petrol (how and where), Oil (check the levels), Water (radiator and washers), Electrics (signals and brake lights) and Rubber (legal tread)". There was some other stuff ont he list as well but it was all stuff I'd been taught already.

    The legal tread, because it's a matter of laws relating to driving, is covered in the UK's theory test. The rest you're left to work out for yourself.

    What happened to me once I'd passed my driving test is that my instructor drove me back to the centre of town, steering with his knees while he wrote his phone number down because he was planning on leaving the driving school he was with and going solo, and hoped I'd pass his number on to friends who wanted to learn.

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  • 03-22-2012 7:57 AM In reply to

    • erikal
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    pjt33:

    What happened to me once I'd passed my driving test is that my instructor drove me back to the centre of town, steering with his knees while he wrote his phone number down because he was planning on leaving the driving school he was with and going solo, and hoped I'd pass his number on to friends who wanted to learn.

     

    He fancied you so he took the opportunity to give you his phone number under the guise of some weak excuse while dazzling you with his l33t driving skills.

     

  • 03-22-2012 8:44 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    Zemm:
    (I mean real gas: LPG. What do you call gas when it is not gasoline?)
    We call it LPG, too, or just propane.
    Yeah, although LPG powered cars are pretty rare. Forklifts are common. For cars and buses, natural gas is more common in the US (which is the type of "gas" that would be used for cooking, etc, unless you have your own propane tank). Though natural gas is mainly used in fleet vehicles, since that's the only place you can justify building the fueling infrastructure.
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  • 03-22-2012 9:13 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    boomzilla:
    since that's the only place you can justify building the fueling infrastructure.
     

    I didn't know! That's why all buses here run on gas.

    Excep for these really old models that stink up the place, spewing a smoky goop that approaches the consistency of pea soup while they're idling at the stop. I don't know why they're still used.


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-22-2012 11:04 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    boomzilla:
    Though natural gas is mainly used in fleet vehicles, since that's the only place you can justify building the fueling infrastructure.
    I don't see why. Its just another nozzle at the pump.
  • 03-22-2012 12:14 PM In reply to

    • Anketam
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    OzPeter:
    boomzilla:
    Though natural gas is mainly used in fleet vehicles, since that's the only place you can justify building the fueling infrastructure.
    I don't see why. Its just another nozzle at the pump.
    It is more than just a nozzle at the pump.  It is the same reason why not all stations carry diesel (supply and demand).

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  • 03-23-2012 5:39 PM In reply to

    • Zemm
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Anketam:
    It is the same reason why not all stations carry diesel (supply and demand).
    Every station I can think of carries diesel, along with U91 and U98. After LRP disappeared U95 was common, then E10 replaced it, but many stations have removed E10 in favour of U95 again (E10 was 2-3c/L cheaper than U91 but you loose more than the difference in loss of efficiency, so the only reason to use it is for environmental reasons). I guess the demand here is for diesel. :) Most stations also have LPG, at approximately half the "per litre" price of unleaded. LPG is better at being compressed compared to natural gas, which is why bottled gas tends to be LPG (though many busses do run on natural, AFAIK not available to the general public). I don't have natural (piped) gas in my street so my cooking/cleaning/heating devices are electric, except my barbecue. I would like to get a gas cooktop when I eventually renovate the kitchen. My hot water system is electric-assisted solar.
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  • 03-24-2012 12:00 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    I refuse to believe you could just run out of fuel without knowing it regarding even a base model 1-litre old model Suzuki Swift will beep and blink a petrol pump symbol until you fill it or take the keys out.

    Also, I've been to places without the overflow sensor in the past five years.

    And yeah, it's very common in the UK to get your license and then not bother driving, ever again. Good luck getting a job or a drink without one.
  • 03-24-2012 1:06 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    nexekho:
    And yeah, it's very common in the UK to get your license and then not bother driving, ever again. Good luck getting a job or a drink without one.

    What? I didn't think a driving licence was a pre-requisite for employment or liquid consumption.

  • 03-24-2012 2:13 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Cassidy:
    What? I didn't think a driving licence was a pre-requisite for employment or liquid consumption.
    Given the choice of two potential employees one with a licence one without a recruiter/HR/etc. will always go for the one with even if you don't drive because it at least leans towards showing that you're not a complete moron (see page one on book smartvs. world smart) which say a university certification probably doesn't.
    It's also one of the more common ways of obtaining proof of age. I think the drinking age is 21 in the US while it's younger here (don't actually know, don't drink)
    These two factors are interlinked because so many people get a license just to have practical proof of age that if there's any competition at ALL in your job market good chance someone in your competition will have a license.
  • 03-24-2012 5:17 PM In reply to

    • PJH
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Cassidy:

    nexekho:
    And yeah, it's very common in the UK to get your license and then not bother driving, ever again. Good luck getting a job or a drink without one.

    What? I didn't think a driving licence was a pre-requisite for employment[...]

    It's common in the boilerplate contracts. I got it struck out of my last job's contract.
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  • 03-24-2012 6:59 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    PJH:
    Cassidy:

    nexekho:
    And yeah, it's very common in the UK to get your license and then not bother driving, ever again. Good luck getting a job or a drink without one.

    What? I didn't think a driving licence was a pre-requisite for employment[...]

    It's common in the boilerplate contracts. I got it struck out of my last job's contract.
    WTF? I find it amusing that the US, which is a much more car-oriented society than the UK, has nothing like this.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-25-2012 4:53 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    WTF? I find it amusing that the US, which is a much more car-oriented society than the UK, has nothing like this.

    I didn't think it was common in many contracts - not unless the job featured driving as part of expected duties[1].  I know it can look a plus point on a CV ("resume") but when I'm interviewing I tend to look at skills and experience before the "additional details" that features a clean driving licence. YMMV.

    As to the drinking thing - again, it's not a pre-requisite. Since featuring a photo, the UK driving licence has recently doubled as an ID card of sorts, showing proof of age, but that doesn't necessarily mean I need to pass a driving test to drink.[2]

     

    [1] A friend who went for a travelling sales job still only had a provisional licence. He announced to them that he could already sell and they could teach him to drive - a preferable option than teaching a driver to sell. He got the job, and they paid for the remainder of his lessons and test.

    As to my own experiences: only one previous job (plus current) required driving. Current job and one other prior job require travelling, and they're not too bothered by what means you used.

    [2] My friends passed their tests long before I did.. which meant I was the one that got ferried around parties by them. For that time period, not having a licence pretty much guaranteed I was the only one out of the party that could drink!

  • 03-25-2012 4:57 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    nexekho:
    so many people get a license just to have practical proof of age

    That bit I agree with. We're a nation that's opposed to having a national identity card yet carry around so many other forms of ID.

    Admittedly, the opposition is more to do with control of information and data protection - a record of which our gubment and associated suppliers speak not too proudly of - but the principle itself is sound and should go some way to consolidating records from other public sectors.

  • 03-25-2012 5:08 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    galgorah:
    tapped the neighbors phone line and made oversees calls.
     

    Glad to see I'm not the only one. They were resodding their side yard and I figured "Hey.. I bet I could sneak wire under it for an intercom with <friend>". When they moved, the new people were assholes about my mini-bike, so I hooked it to their nearby POTS line and dialed some Irish betting parlor's information line and let it go for nine hours. 

     

  • 03-25-2012 9:57 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Cassidy:
    I didn't think it was common in many contracts - not unless the job featured driving as part of expected duties[1].  I know it can look a plus point on a CV ("resume") but when I'm interviewing I tend to look at skills and experience before the "additional details" that features a clean driving licence. YMMV.
    Obviously, if the job includes driving, it's a requirement. Otherwise, I've never heard of anyone even thinking about whether you can drive or not. I'm sure it's assumed that you can. Though I could see it being different in NYC.
    Cassidy:
    As to the drinking thing - again, it's not a pre-requisite. Since featuring a photo, the UK driving licence has recently doubled as an ID card of sorts, showing proof of age, but that doesn't necessarily mean I need to pass a driving test to drink.
    Most states (actually, I suspect it's all of them, but who knows) will also provide a photo ID card that's simply ID. They used to be for nominal fees (like, $10) but the trend now is even to make them free in concert with requiring ID to vote.
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  • 03-25-2012 4:16 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    boomzilla:
    Cassidy:
    I didn't think it was common in many contracts - not unless the job featured driving as part of expected duties[1].  I know it can look a plus point on a CV ("resume") but when I'm interviewing I tend to look at skills and experience before the "additional details" that features a clean driving licence. YMMV.
    Obviously, if the job includes driving, it's a requirement. Otherwise, I've never heard of anyone even thinking about whether you can drive or not. I'm sure it's assumed that you can. Though I could see it being different in NYC.
    Right, the only time I've been asked whether I could drive was when working a job which required infrequent trips to the datacenter.

    boomzilla:
    Cassidy:
    As to the drinking thing - again, it's not a pre-requisite. Since featuring a photo, the UK driving licence has recently doubled as an ID card of sorts, showing proof of age, but that doesn't necessarily mean I need to pass a driving test to drink.
    Most states (actually, I suspect it's all of them, but who knows) will also provide a photo ID card that's simply ID. They used to be for nominal fees (like, $10) but the trend now is even to make them free in concert with requiring ID to vote.
    How many states actually require an ID to vote? I thought it was very rare. A state ID makes a nice backup ID. I usually carry 3 valid picture IDs: license, state ID and concealed carry license.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-25-2012 9:29 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Zemm:
    (though many busses do run on natural, AFAIK not available to the general public)
    Depends on what state you're in.

    In Queensland and WA, they only buy Compressed Natural Gas buses now. In SA they bought a few of them over several years but stopped (I think the main reason was that they needed O-Bahn buses badly because the ones that were designed for it were approaching the age limit, and that the CNG ones couldn't hit 100km\h easily enough so they had to start buying diesel ones again. So they bought craptastic Scanias). No idea on other states.

    I know they trialled one LPG bus in SA many years ago but I believe it was a failure because I have only seen one photo of it and it was from when it first started.

  • 03-26-2012 1:27 AM In reply to

    • Zemm
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    • Gold Coast, Australia
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Douglasac:
    O-Bahn
     

    I remember learning about that in university, as part of my Engineering studies. The character in the OP might drive on it ("I was just following the bus, I didn't see the signs!") like a certain "Ford Laser driver" as described in a case study.

    Douglasac:
    In Queensland and WA, they only buy Compressed Natural Gas buses now.

    I'm in Queensland, which is where I was basing my "many busses" comments. I thought I saw some in Sydney when I was there a few years ago, but I could be tripping. It was my honeymoon so I wasn't really paying attention to the public transport situation! :)

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  • 03-26-2012 6:19 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    How many states actually require an ID to vote? I thought it was very rare. A state ID makes a nice backup ID. I usually carry 3 valid picture IDs: license, state ID and concealed carry license.

    Only nine states currently require photo ID (although two are still pending approval by the Justice Department), but it's becoming more common. A majority of states have some sort of ID requirement, either some non-photo ID (like a voter registration card) or answer personal questions or whatever.

    The thing you have to remember is that identifying yourself when you vote is raaaaacist. But it's For the Children when you have to identify yourself to buy cold medicine.

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  • 03-26-2012 6:29 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Zemm:

    I remember learning about that in university, as part of my Engineering studies. The character in the OP might drive on it ("I was just following the bus, I didn't see the signs!") like a certain "Ford Laser driver" as described in a case study.

    That's the typical excuse given by people who get trapped by the rising bollards in Cambridge (UK) too.
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  • 03-26-2012 9:35 AM In reply to

    • Daid
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 01-30-2007
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    PJH:
    Dunno about New Jersey, but Britain does indeed have petrol pumps.
    New Jersey has a law banning self-service gas stations; all pumps are full-service. Oregon has the same law, I believe.

    PJH:
    Petrol's averaging about $8.71 per (US) gallon over here at the moment - calculated from £1.45/l, ~62.9p of which is fuel cost (~$3.78/gallon), 57.95p fuel duty, and ~24.15p VAT@20%.
    Your non-tax price is about the same as our price with taxes. I never realized how insane the gas tax rates were in England; I just assumed gas was expensive because you didn't have many refineries. Then again, your country is very tiny so you don't have nearly the fuel needs we do.
    We win! http://www.nu.nl/economie/2744073/opnieuw-record-benzineprijs.html Our gas prices, 1.781 Euro per liter. With is £1.488
  • 03-26-2012 10:25 AM In reply to

    • Anketam
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    boomzilla:
    morbiuswilters:
    How many states actually require an ID to vote? I thought it was very rare. A state ID makes a nice backup ID. I usually carry 3 valid picture IDs: license, state ID and concealed carry license.
    Only nine states currently require photo ID (although two are still pending approval by the Justice Department), but it's becoming more common. A majority of states have some sort of ID requirement, either some non-photo ID (like a voter registration card) or answer personal questions or whatever.

    The thing you have to remember is that identifying yourself when you vote is raaaaacist. But it's For the Children when you have to identify yourself to buy cold medicine.

    Similar to that asking for ID for a credit card is considered racism. Which it is important to note that in the case of Mastercard and Visa companies cannot require you to show ID (unless of course it is required for some other reason like cold medicine).

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
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  • 03-26-2012 10:43 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Anketam:
    Similar to that asking for ID for a credit card is considered racism. Which it is important to note that in the case of Mastercard and Visa companies cannot require you to show ID (unless of course it is required for some other reason like cold medicine).
    That's misleading.

    They can't require you to present ID, but they can require you to present ID as a condition of using the card. Most merchants don't give a shit.

    So it's the same way you can opt-out of TSA screening-- you're welcome to opt-out, but you can't enter the terminal if you do.

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  • 03-26-2012 11:09 AM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    A state ID makes a nice backup ID. I usually carry 3 valid picture IDs: license, state ID and concealed carry license.

    Interesting. In my state, you can't possess a driver's license and an identification card at the same time. Getting an identification card will in fact invalidate a driver's license if you have one.

    So I'm applying for a passport as it appears that's the only way I can have backup ID everyone will accept.

     

  • 03-26-2012 11:45 AM In reply to

    • Anketam
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    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    blakeyrat:
    Anketam:
    Similar to that asking for ID for a credit card is considered racism. Which it is important to note that in the case of Mastercard and Visa companies cannot require you to show ID (unless of course it is required for some other reason like cold medicine).
    That's misleading.

    They can't require you to present ID, but they can require you to present ID as a condition of using the card. Most merchants don't give a shit.

    So it's the same way you can opt-out of TSA screening-- you're welcome to opt-out, but you can't enter the terminal if you do.

    I would direct you to: http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htm

    Mastercard even has a link that you can report: "The merchant/retailer required identification." or some other kind of violation like charing you to use the card.  You are indeed correct that most merchants dont care, hence why some people can consider it racism when they are asked.

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
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  • 03-26-2012 1:20 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    I think you guys are missing a lot of the point ... the person(s) in question here aren't failing because they don't know how to fill a tank ... they actually don't realize that they may need to.

  • 03-26-2012 1:24 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    blakeyrat:
    Anketam:
    Similar to that asking for ID for a credit card is considered racism. Which it is important to note that in the case of Mastercard and Visa companies cannot require you to show ID (unless of course it is required for some other reason like cold medicine).
    That's misleading.

    They can't require you to present ID, but they can require you to present ID as a condition of using the card. Most merchants don't give a shit.

    So it's the same way you can opt-out of TSA screening-- you're welcome to opt-out, but you can't enter the terminal if you do.

    Some states have laws that forbid the merchant from asking for ID to make a credit card purchase. In those cases they absolutely cannot require ID. Additionally, it's a violation of the merchant agreement made with the card issuer to require an ID. However, nothing stops them from asking for an ID; they just can't require you to produce one. Additionally, they can ask to see the card and verify that it is signed. However, if it is not signed you are permitted to sign it right there at the point of sale and they have to accept it.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-26-2012 1:26 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    heterodox:

    Interesting. In my state, you can't possess a driver's license and an identification card at the same time. Getting an identification card will in fact invalidate a driver's license if you have one.

    So I'm applying for a passport as it appears that's the only way I can have backup ID everyone will accept.

    Your state sucks. Also, you could possibly get a firearm license, although that may be too much effort.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-26-2012 2:02 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Why is requiring ID to vote or use a CC racist?

  • 03-26-2012 2:21 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Black man prolly stole the card, you know?


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-26-2012 2:28 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    According to the people making that claim, because requiring ID to vote will disenfranchise "hundreds of thousands of voters those without the money, transportation or documentation necessary to obtain state-issued photo ID", (actual official statement by the NAACP when Texas tried to do this recently) and those people are disproportionately minorities.

    It's a bit of a strange claim, though.  I just got my ID renewed a few weeks ago.  It cost me $20 and it's good for 4 years.  (In Washington State.  It's probably a bit different from one state to another, but not by all that much, I'd imagine.)  Hard to believe that there are people who can support themselves from year to year but can't afford *that*.

    It's equally difficult to accept the existence of people who have no trouble making it to the polling places every year, but who are incapable of finding some way, either by driving, walking, riding a bike, taking public transit or catching a ride with someone else, to get to the local Department of Licensing once every X number of years to obtain their ID.

    So what it's really about is the third point: documentation.  In other words, "you can't pass this anti-voter-fraud law or you'll disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of fraudulent voters, and we don't want you to do that! So we'll call the whole idea racist and hope the media plays up that angle!"

    That kinda bewilders me that they'd be that transparent about it.  I mean, just look how much trouble ACORN got in when one of their desk clerks was caught on camera a few years ago dispensing advice on how to break the law and get away with it.  But here we have an official statement from the NAACP blatantly stating "we oppose attempts to 'disenfranchise' illegal immigrants," and there's no investigations, no backlash, no nothing?

  • 03-26-2012 2:36 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Sutherlands:

    Why is requiring ID to vote or use a CC racist?

    In America it's very common for the left wing to scream "racism" whenever the government tries to fix really stupid situations. Like, only recently did a particular state I know of ban people from buying cigarettes and alcohol with food stamps. The right wing does the same thing, they just scream different things.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-26-2012 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Sutherlands:

    Why is requiring ID to vote or use a CC racist?

    Oh, and the reason why CC companies don't want your ID checked is simple: they'd prefer to deal with fraud on their end rather than have every Wal-Mart cashier playing detective. It guarantees using the card is more convenient and available to more people (such as those who don't have ID or who don't have their ID on them) which is more valuable to them than whatever revenue is lost from fraud.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-26-2012 3:07 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    Your state sucks.

    Yes.

    morbiuswilters:
    Also, you could possibly get a firearm license, although that may be too much effort.

    One redeeming factor of my state is the weapon I carry isn't considered a firearm, so I don't need a CHP. But is a CHP photo ID anyway?

    morbiuswilters:
    It guarantees using the card is more convenient and available to more people (such as those who don't have ID or who don't have their ID on them) which is more valuable to them than whatever revenue is lost from fraud.

    Especially as unless something's significantly changed in the past few years, the merchant is out the cost of fraud, not the credit card company.

     

  • 03-26-2012 3:15 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    heterodox:
    One redeeming factor of my state is the weapon I carry isn't considered a firearm, so I don't need a CHP.


    I don't know what a CHP is, but in many states a firearm license is a photo ID. Mine also has my fingerprint on it.

    heterodox:
    Especially as unless something's significantly changed in the past few years, the merchant is out the cost of fraud, not the credit card company.
    Hmm.. I was under the impression that the CC company took the hit unless the merchant made an obvious mistake. In practice, I think they end up sharing the hit fairly equally.

    Let the healing begin!

  • I may not agree with everything Morbs just said, but he expresses himself in a way that is dignified, respectful, polite and non-threatening!
  • 03-26-2012 7:03 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    Zemm:

    Douglasac:
    O-Bahn
     

    I remember learning about that in university, as part of my Engineering studies. The character in the OP might drive on it ("I was just following the bus, I didn't see the signs!") like a certain "Ford Laser driver" as described in a case study.

    Heh, reminds me of an intersection back home... apparently people couldn't quite get the hang of a Give Way sign, and there were lots of crashes and, unfortunately, a couple of people died. The solution: about half a kilometre away from the intersection, have a sign with flashing lights that are activated by a car approaching it saying "WARNING: T JUNCTION. GIVE WAY SIGN AHEAD" or similar.

    Back on the O-Bahn though, I think about three or four cars a year ignore the signs and flashing lights and red strip of road saying BUS LANE, and drive into it. As you do.

    Also, wildlife: kangaroos have been known to hang around the track for some reason, and ducks have crossed it and bought traffic on it to a standstill.
  • 03-26-2012 7:49 PM In reply to

    Re: But it wasn't there last night!

    morbiuswilters:
    I don't know what a CHP is, but in many states a firearm license is a photo ID. Mine also has my fingerprint on it.

    A concealed handgun permit. It makes sense that they'd have photos and fingerprints on them. I'd still be somewhat surprised if more than a small number of private and public venues accepted them as a valid form of identification, but you'd know better than me, having one.

    morbiuswilters:
    Hmm.. I was under the impression that the CC company took the hit unless the merchant made an obvious mistake. In practice, I think they end up sharing the hit fairly equally.

    I've looked into this again and it looks like it's still the case that the credit card company just reverses the transaction, so it's up to the financial institution to decide what to do then. If it's possible, they'll pass the cost on to the merchant; this is especially problematic for Internet merchants and others performing "card not present" transactions. If the merchant did everything right, then the financial institution loses.

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