skippy:

Sadly, there is a lot of truth to this.  I know Canada is really bad for this (not sure about USA), where you're lucky to get half of the student loan amount you ask for.  And if your parents have jobs, they assume your parents will pay for your education and just turn you down for the loans completely.  Doesn't matter if your parents are going to help pay or not... somehow that's irrelevant.

 

Yes I can see how it can be really hard to finance college education if you don't have a daddy with a lot of money (I went through that). but what made me go WTF was this:

bstorer:

...you'll never have the proper education to amount to anything.

 No education = not amounting to anything?????

AssimilatedByBorg:

False splitting of hairs.  That was my implication, and exactly why I emphasized "postings require" rather than "jobs require".

 

Perhaps if you had a college degree you would understand the difference between our two posts?

WeatherGod:

Yeah, probably so, given the number of EE people I have met who believe that Matlab is an operating system, and that .mat files are a universal data format... **ducks**

 

Yeah, I would totally expect an EE to know all about computer software...

MasterPlanSoftware:

bstorer:

Sure, but not everybody can "stick with something for 4 years".

 

Those people are worthless then. A degree wont help them not be worthless.

 

Can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, you play the percentages.  While it is true that there are some VERY talented people who don't have a degree you have a better CHANCE of finding a qualified person by looking for degrees.

I have no DOUBT that you make more money than me MPS, and haven't read many technical conversations of yours, but would assume you're probably more knowledgable than me.  But if I was talking to a group of Jr high or HS kids I would still recommend that any of them that want to get into development go to school.  (I would recommend either EE or CompE, but that's just me.)  Knowing that 1) The percentage of people who can skip college and not get stuck in a dead-end job is small enough that maybe 40 people in an a suburan HS could get away with it and 2) Those who could pull it off, probably already know they can and so would ignore the exhortation.

College != success, but it is usually a better indicator.  Just like the stock market, prior results do not guarentee future success.

morbiuswilters:

The fact is, most software developers have degrees and this is frequently used as a benchmark for their abilities.  Developers without degrees are less common and have to do a bit more to prove themselves.  However, if they stay in the field for a significant period of time then it stands to reason that they have been more thoroughly scrutinized than someone with a degree since faking it would be a lot harder with no credentials at all.  This means that a developer with no degree and a solid, 5 year employment history is more likely to have succeeded through accomplishment than one with a degree, statistically speaking.

Nonsense. You can't ignore those that don't manage a solid, 5 year employment history. It's easy to say, "the good developers are really good developers." But we're talking about the whole lot of 'em.

morbiuswilters:

Companies that take risks are more likely to have rapidly growing financials which will trickle down to the employees.

Only when those companies take risks that pan out.

fatdog:

 No education = not amounting to anything?????

 

Dont forget, most people that feel education is necessary to be successful are that way because they are useless.

They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.

MasterPlanSoftware:

WeatherGod:

Yeah, probably so, given the number of EE people I have met who believe that Matlab is an operating system, and that .mat files are a universal data format... **ducks**

 

Yeah, I would totally expect an EE to know all about computer software...

 

EEs are a weird breed. My roomate got into EE because he wanted to do automation and robotics.  However, you couldn't hardly force him to get on a computer.  The whole time I wondered how he would program his PLCs or robots.

MasterPlanSoftware:

They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.

 

Have no problem with those people, have problem with the people who are too stupid to see that they are not too intelligent and too talented for college.  And, from my experience, those are more common.

bstorer:

Nonsense. You can't ignore those that don't manage a solid, 5 year employment history. It's easy to say, "the good developers are really good developers." But we're talking about the whole lot of 'em.

True, but the bad developers who do not have degrees are more likely to change careers.  Bad developers with degrees are more likely to be able to string people along.  Also, they already have a significant investment in CS that they cannot walk away from.

 

bstorer:

Only when those companies take risks that pan out.

No shit, but statistically speaking risks end up being profitable.  The problem is knowing which risks will work out and which won't.  However, when you look at all risk-takers it's clear that they do better than the non-risk-takers.

bstorer:

MasterPlanSoftware:

I would certainly hope the 'capability of sticking with something for 4 years' is just something you would expect from an employee... I mean... WTF?

Sure, but not everybody can "stick with something for 4 years". If you get a degree, you have empirical evidence that you can.

 

 How do you explain some idiot like SpectateSwamp?  He probably went to college, yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.

taylonr:

And, from my experience, those are more common.

 

Really? I think you are full of shit.

I think it is far more prevalent to have morons who think they are intelligent, and go to college and are still stupid losers who can't figure anything out for themselves.

taylonr:

While it is true that there are some VERY talented people who don't have a degree you have a better CHANCE of finding a qualified person by looking for degrees.

taylonr:

College != success, but it is usually a better indicator.

 

Read my above post.  Not only is there no proof that a developer with a degree will be better or make more money, but the opposite is more likely to be true given a fundamental understanding of economics and human behavior.

TheDude:

yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.

 

Actually, he is The Stupidest Man on Earth.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Filed under: College elitism.

You're ready and willing to attribute things to a college elitism, but you won't acknowledge your own obvious inferiority complex? Fine, I'll do it for you: you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.

morbiuswilters:

No shit, but statistically speaking risks end up being profitable.  The problem is knowing which risks will work out and which won't.  However, when you look at all risk-takers it's clear that they do better than the non-risk-takers.

Citation needed. But even if we accept that as fact, that doesn't make hiring developers without college degrees a risk. If it risk it is a risk because it fails often enough not to be a sure thing. How does that support your argument at all?

TheDude:

 How do you explain some idiot like SpectateSwamp?  He probably went to college, yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.

No he didn't. He has an 8th(9th?)-grade education, "all anybody needs".

bstorer:

you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.

 

Um no, I just do like I always do and when I smell bullshit (like skippy's post, and your posts) I call it out.

If you guys were actually right about something, you might have a point.

MasterPlanSoftware:

They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.

As an aside, I sometimes wonder what is it about the programming field that is different from most other fields out there with regards to needing a degree to be successful in the field. In meteorology, you can't get anywhere without at least a higher-level education (or specialized training).  Even if you were a really intelligent and dedicated person, you still can't get anywhere without several years of classes and/or training. I point out training because I know of several very successful meteorologists who got their start in the Air Force, but they spent a few years in training to learn what is needed to be a good forecaster.

Why is the computer field different? 

bstorer:

MasterPlanSoftware:

Filed under: College elitism.

You're ready and willing to attribute things to a college elitism, but you won't acknowledge your own obvious inferiority complex? Fine, I'll do it for you: you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.

 

College can't teach you anything.. no one can teach you anything, but college, books, other people (teachers) can facilitate the road for you to learn and comprehend.. So having a college degree only means that you have a college degree.. nothing more nothing less..

I have three college degrees, (one full 5 year career, and two 2 year ones)... and currently make a living out of something I learned by myself, with no formal education whatsoever... 

I 'm not saying college is a bad thing.. but believing that college is the only way, it's ellitist and sad. Specially in a fast changing field like IT and computers.. formal education simply cannot keep the pace.. so good developers are not good because they went to college, but because they learned and keep learning.. 

WeatherGod:

Why is the computer field different? 

 

Perhaps because it is hard for people to have doppler radar to play with at home and learn on?

Has there ever been any locked thread that MPS didn't post in?

MasterPlanSoftware:

Um no, I just do like I always do and when I smell bullshit (like skippy's post, and your posts) I call it out.

It only seems like bullshit to you because you're wrong. I know that's not something you like to accept, so you just go ahead and flame me for this post, too. I wouldn't want to get in the way of your confirmation bias.

MasterPlanSoftware:

If you guys were actually right about something, you might have a point.

You wouldn't understand my point if it sat on your face and wiggled.

Wow, this got out of hand fast.

I guess I could comment on the degree/experience thing, though.  I do not have a college degree.  I have a successful job and have worked in software going on 7 years now.  I've only been turned down for a job once.  I think that this is because, while I do not have a degree, I do have a real interest in computer science.  The degreed programmer in the cube next door has a "Java: How to Program" (3rd edition, from 1999)on their desk, and will never visit TheDailyWTF.

I'm an academic who realized he had no need for academia.