I think that everyone is jumping on the emoticon thing for the wrong reason - business doesn't have to be a bunch of stuffy idiots in suits.  In fact, if a candidate applied for a job I was offering with emoticons, I would consider them to be a better person than the regular canned "professional" letter.  Especially in a startup, which usually is trying to be "hip" and "cool" in order to entice people to come and work for them.

That said, I have never heard of a phone and a car being standard perks anywhere, at any company.  But I'm only experienced in my limited area so I don't know about the rest of the world.  

Also, this startup is probably like all of the rest - they want someone who will work long and hard on their product, but will accept little or no money as compensation.  They think that the word "startup" is magic and will easily get the best programmers out there to work on "the next MySpace/Youtube/Facebook/etc." in hopes of hitting it big.  Since most startups are just trying to jump on the "Web 2.0" bandwagon, and are usually started by people without a technical background to begin with, they think that great programmers will jump for joy and be willing to work 80+ hours a week for sweat equity or a menial salary, all so they can say they work for a startup and, in the founder's dreams anyway, say they created the Next Big Thing.

In short:  In my opinion the OP is right, and the company was wrong.  They, in fact, were about to waste your time.

Da' Man:

Pssst! Don't tell them! Do you really want to have a mass immigration of American IT-guys

You do realize that hardly anyone here would take a car over salary right? At least not anyone with any common sense...

Most sensible people would rather get extra salary and OWN the car so they can actually have a higher net worth and have a car if they leave or get fired.

ObiWayneKenobi:

In fact, if a candidate applied for a job I was offering with emoticons, I would consider them to be a better person than the regular canned "professional" letter.

Yes, but you also think that the tax laws in America are illegal and that people shouldn't submit tax returns because it could incriminate you.

MasterPlanSoftware:

You do realize that hardly anyone here would take a car over salary right? At least not anyone with any common sense...

Most sensible people would rather get extra salary and OWN the car so they can actually have a higher net worth and have a car if they leave or get fired.

The logic is right, but you forgot something:

A car lease + fuel might cost 1000€ a month.

Giving you a car + fuel card costs the company then 1000€ a month.

If you as an employee decide you'd like to have that 1000€ in hard cash, the company would be forced to pay over 2000€ a month, of which half goes to the government.

So, if you would neglect to take the car, you would at best receive 500€.

I don't know about you, but I can't pay a similar brand new car, its insurance and fuel on 500€ a month.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Yes, but you also think that the tax laws in America are illegal and that people shouldn't submit tax returns because it could incriminate you.

You forgot that I use a Mac and was afraid of using .NET 3.5, and that I supported Ron Paul.

wooter:

I don't know about you, but I can't pay a similar brand new car, its insurance and fuel on 500€ a month.

I don't know about you, but I negotiate for my salary and live within my means.

MasterPlanSoftware:

I don't know about you, but I negotiate for my salary and live within my means.

Hence, a car is for a larger percentile of jobs regarded as benefits.  I wish you very much luck trying to negotiate a sudden wage increase by +500€, not to mention the difference you'll have to pay on your income tax (which ends up that you would need to ask for about 1400€ cash if you would like to own a car, instead of having it given by your employer.

I don't see the issue, by the way, since quite alot of US cars are actually not owned by their drivers, but by the bank.  You do realise that "leasing", "renting" and "financing" a car are concepts Europe learned from the US, right? :)

Hey wooter :-)

I agree with you  - well, for the most part: If I'm on first-name terms with a client, I would still say "Dear Benoit.. " or whatever his first name is in the email, and in fact even in written letters. And I would continue to use informal addressing at least in German (="du"), though I would probably be more careful with it in French. But that's probably just a matter of personal style, And I'm not implying my style is better, it's just that this works and has worked for me. But if we were all the same.. 

Also true, maybe I've overestimated the "regular" fringe benefit situation here in Belgium (as you may guess, I'm an Expat here), or in fact I may have even over-estimated theselling power of my CV - but nevertheless the WTF remains: if "competetive" is too much for the company, I immediately loose faith in the quality of products this company may produce one day. And then I may be on the buying end (or rather not, because I would look into other suppliers who may also employ people who are willing to pay for too little (this being Belgium after all) but at least don't admit to it.

In any case, this point may have been lost in all the discussion about emoticons and cars, so I thank you for your advice (which was - different to certain other's - actually well grounded and helpful.

wooter:

I wish you very much luck trying to negotiate a sudden wage increase by +500€, not to mention the difference you'll have to pay on your income tax (which ends up that you would need to ask for about 1400€ cash if you would like to own a car, instead of having it given by your employer.

 Apparently I am doing something right, and you are doing something wrong then. I am able to afford all my vehicles, with insurance, gas, etc quite easily.

wooter:

I don't see the issue, by the way, since quite alot of US cars are actually not owned by their drivers, but by the bank.  You do realise that "leasing", "renting" and "financing" a car are concepts Europe learned from the US, right? :)

Financing a car results in ownership. In some cases so does leasing.

Getting a company car never will.

Da' Man:

I thank you for your advice (which was - different to certain other's - actually well grounded and helpful.

Everyone here has given you 'well grounded' advice. Your choice to ignore it is the only thing not 'well grounded'.

MasterPlanSoftware:

 Apparently I am doing something right, and you are doing something wrong then. I am able to afford all my vehicles, with insurance, gas, etc quite easily.

Oh gosh!  You're just like your friend!  You know what they say about when you ASS-U-ME things :)

I'm pretty sure most people who are given a car, make enough that they could buy their own car.  But it's more fun if you can save, instead of spending it on work-related transportation :)

You've heard about the concept?  To save? :)

wooter:

I'm pretty sure most people who are given a car, make enough that they could buy their own car.  But it's more fun if you can save, instead of spending it on work-related transportation :)

Apparently not, judging by your argument that the money is cut from your salary and replaced by the car benefit.

wooter:

You've heard about the concept?  To save? :)

You are asking the guy who doesn't have to worry about his company paying for his transportation? Interesting.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Apparently not, judging by your argument that the money is cut from your salary and replaced by the car benefit.

The money is not cut.  You get either the choice of 40% to pay up for a car, or a car.  In all ways, taking the money will only do one thing for you: you still have a car when you leave the company.  You might drive a cheaper, smaller, older, less safe and less economical car, but you'd keep your car.  I don't know about you, but if it's only car ownership that arouses you, you've got problems.

I know a few who started depending on their company cars, and that's unhealthy.  But hey, what's the difference with Americans staying with a company for +15 years to get a decent amount of holidays, you know :D

MasterPlanSoftware:

You are asking the guy who doesn't have to worry about his company paying for his transportation? Interesting.

So what happens when the job ends?  Your supa-dupa US built car runs on butterflies and smiles?  Not on your savings, because that would mean you would not be a Real American :). Can't have savings, must have credit reports! :)

wooter:

But hey, what's the difference with Americans staying with a company for +15 years to get a decent amount of holidays, you know

Are you always this full of shit?

I had a 'decent amount of holidays' the first year I was with my company.

In 15+ years, I will have a ridiculous amount.

wooter:

So what happens when the job ends? 

You mean when the next job begins? What is your point? Are you in the habit of being unemployed? I am not.

wooter:

Not on your savings, because that would mean you would not be a Real American :). Can't have savings, must have credit reports! :)

Again, you are full of shit. 

Try getting a clue of what you are talking about. You are making yourself out to be an arrogant retard (although I am getting some idea that this is the real you).

Or you can keep talking out of your ass, we are all having a good laugh at your expense.

wooter:

I know a few who started depending on their company cars, and that's unhealthy.  But hey, what's the difference with Americans staying with a company for +15 years to get a decent amount of holidays, you know :D

(My coworkers tell me) back in the "day," a lot of companies had a 10 year vesting program for their 401k, basically forcing people to stay.  Now, that's been relaxed to five years in most companies, and 3 years in mine.

With regards to vacation, I get 15 days (after 2 years it becomes 20), my friend gets 25 with a different company in under 2 years.  What's "a decent amount of vacation" to you?

Da' Man:

I do not believe we can make a competitive enough offer that would interest you.  All the best,

Er, did I miss something? I didn't even talk about money so far. In fact, I (stupidly) even made it clear that I am willing to work for less if the work is interesting enough. What are they looking for? An idiot who is willing to work for next to nothing - well, then I already disqualified myself by showing off with my experience :-)

In my experience, though, most experienced developers (web or otherwise)
will have a good clue about how much they are worth (we get job offers
from certain headhunters from time to time :-) and it will be relatively
difficult to find somebody who is willing to work under value.

OK, that was a bit fresh, but I had to get back into the game. I also suggested an "informal" meeting one of these days just to see if there is any way to see if there is any posibility to cooperate.

The HR person who wrote back had a different opinion:

I feel as though we would be wasting our time as I said before I do not believe that we can make you an offer which will swipe you of your feet .

The above is all code for "Hmm, yeah.  You sound like you've done this before and are going to ask for things like comp time when we start asking you to work Saturdays and, a month or two later, Sundays, too.  We're looking for someone who will just sign the boilerplate offer of employment, work for a year or two until hopelessly burned out, and then quit before we have to start paying for things like vacation time." 

You weren't, by chance, applying for work with a company that makes beverage distribution software out in the microbrew capitol of the world, were you?  I received similar treatment a year ago while looking for a job, except I specified a salary range and was later told that my 9.5 years of experience was really only worth 2 years, but they would graciously start me at a junior-level position for 60% of my asking price (and only 75% of my current salary, disregarding that I was moving from a very small market that paid well below industry average into a larger market with a real tech sector).  Except, they never made that offer, just told me what I was worth to them and stopped responding to any further calls.  It's amazing how the guy who had time to call me two or three times a day leading up to my interview was suddenly "in meetings" from 7AM to 7PM.

wooter:

You might drive a cheaper, smaller, older, less safe and less economical car, but you'd keep your car.  I don't know about you, but if it's only car ownership that arouses you, you've got problems.

It has nothing to do with car ownership being arousing. You forget that those of us who live in the US have to travel farther to get across some cities than many Europeans have to travel to get across their entire countries. Having a car in some parts of the country is a requirement, not a luxury - see most of Texas outside Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and San Antonio for example, or all of Southern California, or the entire states of New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota, etc.

And we get high enough wages that we don't have to stoop to a "cheaper, smaller, older, less safe and less economical car"; I drive a late model Ford Explorer by choice so I can tow my boat to the lakes I like to fish, but I have other friends who choose to drive Porsches and BMWs and Mercedes, all of which they pay for themselves. :-) 

livid:

The above is all code for "Hmm, yeah.  You sound like you've done this before and are going to ask for things like comp time when we start asking you to work Saturdays and, a month or two later, Sundays, too.  We're looking for someone who will just sign the boilerplate offer of employment, work for a year or two until hopelessly burned out, and then quit before we have to start paying for things like vacation time." 

No, the above was all code for "Ok, we've figured out that you're a pompous, arrogant ass who highly overrates the value of your skills and composes email like a little juvenile script kiddie. However, we're too professional (and polite) to say that, so we'll just say we can't afford to pay the "competitive" excessive salary you'll be expecting for those supposed skills, apologize for wasting your time, and keep looking for someone who really knows what they're doing who will work for a salary comensurate with their abilities who can communicate at an adult and professional level with our clients."

It was probably something with your attitude that cost you the opportunity, too. Nine and a half years experience doesn't mean the same as 9 * 1 year + 6 months, you know.

livid:

The above is all code for "Hmm, yeah.  You sound like you've done this before and are going to ask for things like comp time when we start asking you to work Saturdays and, a month or two later, Sundays, too.  We're looking for someone who will just sign the boilerplate offer of employment, work for a year or two until hopelessly burned out, and then quit before we have to start paying for things like vacation time."

Ah, you won't believe how good it feels to know that there is at least one other person who sees this the same way as I do :-)

livid:

You weren't, by chance, applying for work with a company that makes beverage distribution software out in the microbrew capitol of the world, were you?

No no, it's an Internet consulting firm. A startup obviously.

livid:

I received similar treatment a year ago while looking for a job, except I specified a salary range and was later told that my 9.5 years of experience was really only worth 2 years, but they would graciously start me at a junior-level position for 60% of my asking price (and only 75% of my current salary, disregarding that I was moving from a very small market that paid well below industry average into a larger market with a real tech sector).  Except, they never made that offer, just told me what I was worth to them and stopped responding to any further calls.  It's amazing how the guy who had time to call me two or three times a day leading up to my interview was suddenly "in meetings" from 7AM to 7PM.

Normally, I would just assume, they have found an idiot to fill the post, so they stopped bothering to call you, but...

livid:

The best part, though, is that even 16 months later that company is still looking to fill the position I interviewed for.

.. probably they just understood that they won't get you where they want you, so they have to keep looking for somebody with less experience (or negotiation skills).

 BTW: I just checked - the job I was applying to is also still open. Unfortunately it doesn't say: "If you expect stings like a 'competetive salary', don't bother applying."

KenW:

And we get high enough wages that we don't have to stoop to a "cheaper, smaller, older, less safe and less economical car"

I think you are missing the point about the whole 'company car' thing.

To pay for a reasonable car, I would have to pay all in all, let's say about 250 Euro per month, either for leasing or for the credit rates, or at least as a loss in book value (i.e. I have to save the money to buy a new one after some time.

For me to earn 250 Euro, the company would have to pay me close to 350 Euro. That's just how it is here.

For the company, to least a similar car would come for something closer to 200 Euro.First because it is cheaper for a company, secondly because they can deduct all kind of things from their taxes, including "investments" in company cars, etc.

So I would agree to 350 Euro *less* salary if they give me a car that costs them less than 200. Sounds like a good deal for the company, doesn't it?

Plus I don't have to bother about the paperworks and insurance and so on...

Da' Man:

Filed Under: I want a car

 Maybe you should move to a country where you make enough money where this is not prohibitively expensive? Maybe a new career path?

Also, this burning need for a car, but not being able to afford it has lost you one potential job, how many more do you plan to lose?