MasterPlanSoftware:

There is with the way you do it.

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept of typing in numbers into a machine that gives you the answer.

MasterPlanSoftware:

That is because you like to be cruel to them.

I would find it more demeaning as a cashier if a customer told me they expected a quarter back before I had a chance to type it in and see for myself. By not saying anything, I give them an opportunity to type it in and give me the change like they would do under any other circumstances.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Then use it responsibly

Oh.. there's a "responsible money handler" manual somewhere? Giving money to someone asking for money is it. Plain and simple. I'm not in the middle of the inner-city or slums, so we don't have donation jars and beggars at every corner.

MasterPlanSoftware:

BTW - you don't look down on people? You sure seem to. You even look down on our very own moderators:

Poor, poor MPS. Trolling the logs because he is locked out of the channel.

MasterPlanSoftware:

I mean, christ, show some respect, huh?

You're one to be talking.

AbbydonKrafts:

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept of typing in numbers into a machine that gives you the answer.

I know abby, no one is as smart as you. We all get it.

AbbydonKrafts:

By not saying anything, I give them an opportunity to type it in and give me the change like they would do under any other circumstances.

That might be what you tell yourself, but there are an awful lot of people in this thread who disagree with you.

AbbydonKrafts:

I'm not in the middle of the inner-city or slums, so we don't have donation jars and beggars at every corner.

Ahhh more condescending behavior. 

It must be so lonely in your ivory tower.

 

AbbydonKrafts:

Poor, poor MPS. Trolling the logs because he is locked out of the channel.

Actually, I can go on the channel anytime I want to. I just choose not to, ever since it turned into abby and ling's personal ego contest.

AbbydonKrafts:

You're one to be talking.

I am nothing but respectful to clerks/other people that I meet. People who treat other people rudely? No, I am not very nice to them.

If you want me to be respectful of you, you could try being respectful of other people.

MasterPlanSoftware:

I know abby, no one is as smart as you. We all get it.

It has nothing to do with being smarter than the clerk. The machine does the work. If I was to go do that job right now, I'd still let the register do the work. No sense in working it in your head.

MasterPlanSoftware:

That might be what you tell yourself, but there are an awful lot of people in this thread who disagree with you.

And there are people that agree with me. I make polite conversation with all the cashiers if time permits (no line, etc), so I'm far from demeaning or sadistic with them.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Ahhh more condescending behavior.

If you've never heard the general populace use "inner-city" and "slums" before, you are the one stuck in an ivory tower. Those terms are a fact of life. "Beggar" is also the term for people begging for money. It's an all-inclusive term because even working people with a house do it (they have been outed before).

MasterPlanSoftware:

I just choose not to, ever since it turned into abby and ling's personal ego contest.

If you'd quit using the word "fuck" every other word and insulting people because of their incomes and whatnot, we could care less. I thought it was pretty fun when you were around. So do the others. But recently, you ignite fires everytime you come in. It's completely harsh and uncalled for.

MasterPlanSoftware:

If you want me to be respectful of you, you could try being respectful of other people.

I've never disrespected anyone I've encountered in public. I may dislike some of them, but it never shows in my expression, manner, or speech.

 

AbbydonKrafts:

It has nothing to do with being smarter than the clerk.

That sure seem to be all it is about for you.

AbbydonKrafts:

I make polite conversation with all the cashiers

So you just assume that every cashier must want to talk to you? Jeez. Ego-mania.

AbbydonKrafts:

Those terms are a fact of life.

No, assuming no one outside the big city is poor is not a fact of life. It is a sad look into superiority complexes.

Where you live must be so great that no one is poor, everyone is so wealthy that no one could use a helping hand I guess.

Or maybe the poor people all tried to get minimum wage jobs, got treated like crap by arrogant customers and decided to move to the city and live out of a box.

AbbydonKrafts:

But recently, you ignite fires everytime you come in.

Hey what can I say? Take a bunch of people with superiority complexes, and rude and abusive behavior and make them OPs and people get upset. Also, make sure that OPs don't even have to have anything to do with TDWTF... that oughta help.

AbbydonKrafts:

I may dislike some of them, but it never shows in my expression, manner, or speech.

Not from what I have seen.

 

 

 

bstorer:

morbiuswilters:

The very fact that Welpog describes it that way should tell you he is literally insane.  It's not the act of retrieving a few more pieces of metal that is a pain, it's having to deal with customers who want to do obnoxious stuff like this.

Not to mention that, if you've ever looked at modern POS software, they typically have fast-entry options for the price rounded to the nearest dollar and the next 1 or 2 larger bills. For example, if the total is $5.70, you can hand the cashier $6, $10, or maybe even $20 and result in only 1 button press for them. Giving them $6.20 to upgrade to quarters requires them to type the price in, while everyone in line behind you fidgets angrily.

That's pretty much the reason, especially when combined with the fact that a lot of people tell you they have change after you've already hit the button. You'd be surprised how much quicker things move by just cutting out two button presses. The OP is still a massive WTF, of course.

morbiuswilters:

How can you live on this planet and not realize that you are inconveniencing the cashier? 

How is helping the cashier not to run out of small change inconveniencing the cashier?

MasterPlanSoftware:

AbbydonKrafts:

But recently, you ignite fires everytime you come in.

Hey what can I say? Take a bunch of people with superiority complexes, and rude and abusive behavior and make them OPs and people get upset. Also, make sure that OPs don't even have to have anything to do with TDWTF... that oughta help.

IRC is serious business.

Silliness aside, that is the problem with IRC channels that have too many operators. If your channel is +s (which I believe #TDWTF is), then there's no reason to have so many ops. Pretty much the only reason you want to have a lot of ops is to make sure that the channel is never without an active op in order to keep the spammers out, but +s pretty much means spammers will never show up. The more ops given out, the more likely one of those ops will abuse the power.

Ideally you want a lazy +q who rarely ever visits the channel but is available for complaining about ops. That's how #kevex works. I'm the primary op there, but I'm not +q. If I kick/ban/devoice/laser someone who doesn't deserve it, I can be held responsible for it. It's worked for the last five years, so I figure it's a pretty good system.

Long story short, if you think the situation in #TDWTF is bad, make your own channel and assign +q to someone you can trust to be lazy and fair.

 

PJH:

morbiuswilters:

How can you live on this planet and not realize that you are inconveniencing the cashier? 

How is helping the cashier not to run out of small change inconveniencing the cashier?

 

Indeed. I cashiered for extra money in High School and part of college, and my coworkers and I always appreciated when a customer paid in change and small bills. When everyone pays in twenties and tens it means you're calling the manager to replenish your change supply quite often, which inconveniences everybody. We all kept small pocket calculators by our tills for the event of last minute change (ie,  people realizing they were going to get 94 cents back in change and digging out a penny and a nickel.) It was never a big deal. 

Welbog:

Silliness aside, that is the problem with IRC channels that have too many operators.

I agree 100% and have argued this since the beginning.

Welbog:

Long story short, if you think the situation in #TDWTF is bad, make your own channel and assign +q to someone you can trust to be lazy and fair.

Already done. Thanks anyway.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Already done. Thanks anyway.

Who's +q? I hope it's either you or morb.

I came late to Morb's recent thread so only now am I up to speed on the goings on of #TDWTFMafia. I think that is indeed the right choice, if I understand what happened to #TDWTF correctly. Ling shouldn't give ops to forum admins. Forums and IRC are related by userbase and interest only. If Michael wants to start an official TDWTF channel, then he can moderate it all he wants. I wish I could have been there when this happened.

Even #kevex operates this way. Our related forums' admins only have +h in #kevex, and our IRC admins are just regular users on the forums. I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Welbog:

I wish I could have been there when this happened.

Well, what happened is that we all noticed in the logs for the night prior Mikey joining the channel and immediately requesting ops and trying to assert his power. He tried to post the forum rules, but couldn't figure that out. So he posted them to pastebin instead.
After this, he went on to flame me and a lot of other forum regulars and told everyone how he was going to 'clean up the forums'. He claimed he would put and end to any bickering or name calling (what the forums are pretty much based on) and making it all polite pleasantries (see his rules in Morb's thread).

He continued on to be whined to by Lingerance and dtech, where he made the decision to ban me whenever he saw me, both from the forums and the channel.

This is where a lot of anger towards him came from. With no actual judgement of his own, and without talking the issue out, he made the decision to ban people.
Clearly, this is not appropriate mod behavior.

This was two nights ago.

Last night, we were all having a discussion, and suddenly Mikey enters the channel. Without any kind of provocation he attempts (and fails to kick and ban me). He eventually succeeded in kicking me, despite just about everyone there arguing against his decision.

So anyway, you asked, and I thought I should let you (and anyone who wants to know) what happened. This is why we know Mikey is not who we want around here. AmmoQ is a great mod on his own, let's let Morb's thread play out and talk as a community, and not let Mikey the forum/IRC nazi ruin our community.

MasterPlanSoftware:

This was exactly my point, thank you. People like abbydonkrafts and perdidopunk are so full of themselves that they feel they have the right to demean people for no reason. 

 

 

 Note that I never said that the clerk is an idiot. In fact, I made certain to point out that I'm not demeaning to anyone, and I'm certainly not a condescending or demeaning person in my daily dealings with people employed in customer service or retail positions. I make a point to always speak in a very polite tone, and to be patient if I'm waiting for a cashier to complete a transaction or some such thing. My biggest gripe, like I stated earlier, is when people in these positions take an attitude that I as a customer am somehow inconveniencing them, either just by being there to pay for an item or service, or by say, asking for certain denominations of money back as change. People should take pride in the work they do, and if they work directly with customers, then they should pride themselves on providing efficient and friendly service. I pride myself on being responsive to user requests and inquiries, maintaining very quick turnaround time on deliverables, and ensuring that the code I deliver is of high quality. Why shouldn't someone in a customer service position be expected to deliver service of a similar quality level?

 The fact of the matter is that a lot of people working in retail positions are extremely cynical and standoffish with customers. Maybe this isn't as prevalent in other areas of the world. I live in NJ. People are assholes here. I understand that many or most customers in any store here often act like complete jerks toward the employees, and that as a result those employees might put up a rather thick defensive layer of standoffishness. Does that mean that when a customer approaches, smiling, and says, "Hi!" while holding out $13.50 for an $8.47 purchase, he should receive nothing but a scowl in return? I would think that being ready with an easily handled amount of cash for payment would make the clerks job easier.

 The times that I've seen clerks get most annoyed are when older folks make purchases by carefully counting out exact change. Yes, this does slow down the line, but at the same time, the older person standing there is trying to be polite and is actually counting up the money for the clerk, which should really be the clerk's job. Why should some 17 year old punk feel that he has the right to stand there and scoff at an old lady for trying to pay for something with exact change?

 Back to my original rebuttal about effort put forth in school - I really do believe that people should be qualified enough to perform the job they are hired for. If a person is hired to be a cashier, then he or she should should possess the basic skills of addition and subtraction required to count change out for a customer. This is the one prequisite skill for this position. Lacking that skill is not an excuse to be put off when a customer presents an odd combination of money for a purchase in hopes of receiving a certain amount of change back. A clerk should never be rude or curt with a customer, and vice versa. As I stated earlier, if a clerk has trouble figuring out why I handed him or her $13.50, I will kindly point out that I'm looking for a five and three pennies back on my $8.47 purchase. This is not demeaning. 

 

I won't deny that I do enjoy the lofty position of academia, but it has nothing to do with sitting in an ivory tower and looking down on other people. Perhaps stating that people who apply themselves academically "work harder" than those who don't was a faux pas; my intention was to point out that it takes many years of discipline and hard work to earn a degree in a technical field, and it takes five minutes to fill out an application to work at Kohl's. Perhaps the clerk at Kohl's has been working very hard on something, and perhaps he or she hasn't. I'm inclined to believe that a 17 year old cashier in a department store who can't count change has not been working very hard, since the only thing that kids have to work on is school. Even athletes, musicians, artists, and others who might not be so focused on academics can still do well in school, with only a modicum of extra effort. I've spent plenty of time pursuing all of these things and I managed to pull through with all of them pretty well. I don't attribute this to having supernatural abilities or something; it just takes diligence and hard work. Anybody with normal mental function can learn basic math. In fact, I maintain that anyone can learn advanced calculus. All it takes is the will to do so. If anything, I think this is the least demeaning position I could take toward those who are not as well educated as I am. They're not idiots, they're not incapable, they just haven't put forth the effort to learn the same things that I have. That doesn't give them the right to perform poorly as an employee or to disrespect customers, any more than my college degree gives me the right to treat them like inferior people (it doesn't, and I don't).

 

In short, MPS, please read carefully and consider what a person has written before eagerly marching off to war against him. Please don't put words in my mouth and insinuate that I'm disrespectful toward anyone, except for maybe those who make a point to insult me in a childish, backhanded way. I shouldn't always have to completely qualify every single statement I make to avoid being picked apart. This isn't a court of law.

PerdidoPunk:

it takes many years of discipline and hard work to earn a degree in a technical field

I'd like to point out that if this were true, TDWTF wouldn't exist.

Welbog:

PerdidoPunk:

it takes many years of discipline and hard work to earn a degree in a technical field

I'd like to point out that if this were true, TDWTF wouldn't exist.

In my line of work this is known as "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" 

PerdidoPunk:

Note that I never said that the clerk is an idiot.

 

Implying is just as bad as saying the actual words.

PerdidoPunk:

The fact of the matter is that a lot of people working in retail positions are extremely cynical and standoffish with customers.

Here you go generalizing them from your ivory tower again...

PerdidoPunk:

I live in NJ. People are assholes here.

QFT.

PerdidoPunk:

I would think that being ready with an easily handled amount of cash for payment would make the clerks job easier.

Unfortunately, that is not what this discussion is about. Re-read  abby's post to see what we are talking about.

PerdidoPunk:

Why should some 17 year old punk feel that he has the right to stand there and scoff at an old lady for trying to pay for something with exact change?

This is the perfect example of your demeaning form of speech. That is how I know you are one of those people that are assholes to clerks.

 And BTW, has it ever occurred to you, the clerk might be impatient, because he knows that there will be some asshole in line that only views him/her as "some 17 year old punk" and will be nothing but nasty to him for the line taking so long?

PerdidoPunk:

If a person is hired to be a cashier, then he or she should should possess the basic skills of addition and subtraction required to count change out for a customer.

But abby's post said this person should do nothing but use the machine. You cannot have this both ways.

 

PerdidoPunk:

I won't deny that I do enjoy the lofty position of academia

How is being a student or graduate 'lofty'. It doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

What about someone who holds the same position as you, makes the same money, and produces comparable work, but didn't go to school? Are they somehow not as good as you?

PerdidoPunk:

my intention was to point out that it takes many years of discipline and hard work to earn a degree in a technical field, and it takes five minutes to fill out an application to work at Kohl's.

And my intention was that the guy you think is a moron might be having a bad day. And he might be someone who could do your job, without going to school (IE: paying for an education). So who would be the 'better' person here?

PerdidoPunk:

since the only thing that kids have to work on is school.

Perhaps you did. The rest of us might have had other things going on too.

PerdidoPunk:

I think this is the least demeaning position I could take toward those who are not as well educated as I am.

You really hold your education above everyone's head. It is very sad. Perhaps other people have other things they can be proud of besides their degrees?

PerdidoPunk:

Please don't put words in my mouth and insinuate that I'm disrespectful toward anyone,

I definitely don't have to put words in your mouth, every post you have made confirms my position on this better than I ever could. Your elitist, condescending attitude makes me shudder. I feel sorry for the people around you that you have to deal with.

MasterPlanSoftware:

BTW - you don't look down on people? You sure seem to. You even look down on our very own moderators:  <AbbydonKrafts> Err.. how old is Michael [Casadevall]? That log looks like he doesn't know how to do anything.

I mean, christ, show some respect, huh?

Are you the moron that sold me this cheap shitty sarcasm detector?

*yawn*

 

Man, is this thread still going?  Well, that's it, then.  I didn't want it to come to this, but you have forced my hand.  I will kill one cashier every hour until my demands are met.

morbiuswilters:

I will kill one cashier every hour until my demands are met.

But... but... you didn't list any demands!

bstorer:

morbiuswilters:

I will kill one cashier every hour until my demands are met.

But... but... you didn't list any demands!

Hmm.. yes, that might prove a sticking point...

 

How about:

1) lay this thread to its eternal rest

2) moar beer

3) ammoQ's +5 Staff of Moderation 

Well, now that the swamp thread has a stake though its heart, we need a new place for all the flaming and uselessness. Unforunately, this one doesn't have a village idiot, but I'm sure we can find one nutcase looks like a promising candidate, but she lacks the complete inanity we came to know and love. Has anyone seen Swampy recently?