H1-B Admits To Being "Modern Day Slave"
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@zonker said:
@TunnelRat said:
I take issue with the use of the term "immigrant" to describe H1-Bs. They are not migrating to the U.S. -- they are brought here to work at sub-market wages and then, after six years, they have to go back to their home country.
OK, you have just confirmed what I suspected. You don't really understand what the H1B visa type is all about.
Congress removed the "temporary" designation from the H1B visa class, recognizing that the H1B visa is the first step in the immigration process. See [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#H-1B_and_legal_immigration"]H-1B_and_legal_immigration[/url] for more information about this.
And you are fooling yourself if you think that all H1B visa workers are here on sub-market wages. This may be true for the bodyshoppers but is certainly false for those non-US citizens who have come through the US university system and then moved into the American workforce via the H1B visa.
The more you say, the more your ignorance and paranoia shine through.
I think that link supports my position as much, if not more than yours:
The H-1B visa program is controversial [5] Advocates say the program (and similar ones operated by other technologically-advanced countries) helps the host country maintain its technological as well as economic superiority by providing a steady flow of highly skilled professionals who may be in short supply domestically. It also provides an incentive for companies not to move their operations abroad. Recent data suggests, that this intent is not the guaranteed outcome.
The H-1B program has been criticized for displacing substantial numbers of experienced American citizen technical professionals or lowering wages enough to encourage them to abandon volatile careers in targeted fields such as computer technology. Although there are differing views on whether or not the H-1B visa is good for the U.S. economy, economist Milton Friedman has called the program a form of subsidy.[6]. Currently the number of H-1B visas issued per year is limited to 65,000 with an additional 20,000 for those with U.S. graduate degrees and no limit for universities and non-profit and government research laboratories.
Other critics have argued that H-1B programs are distorting market forces within the U.S. by incentivising Indian nationals to flood U.S. graduate schools to earn Advanced degrees solely for the purpose of obtaining work visas, and at the same time de-incentivising U.S. citizens from earning technical degrees or continuing on to earn graduate degrees due to applicant pool flooding. For instance, at the undergraduate level, US-born engineering students constitute upwards of 90-95% of the student population, with a student pool that is larger than the number of foreign born nationals who apply to engineering graduate schools to earn advanced degrees. Yet, upwards of 50% of the advanced degrees conferred in technology are to foreign-born nationals.[7]
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@TunnelRat said:
According to IndiaTimes InfoTech:
H-1 B is a temporary visa programme that enables employers in US to hire professional level foreign workers for a period of up to six years. As per the US law, employers must pay H1-B workers either the same rate as other employees with similar skills or the ‘prevailing wage’ for that occupation and location, which ever is higher.
The December 2005 findings by Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), on whose basis two US Senators wrote to nine Indian firms asking for details of how 20,000 H1-B visas were used, reveal that such visa holders were being paid an average salary of $52,312 as against $65,003 to locals.
Oh, and nice bit of intellectual dishonesty here. IndiaTimes InfoTech does not "say" anything on this issue. It merely quotes a study by CIS, which is a right-wing immigration-reduction oriented organization, and the outcome of the release of the study results.
What results did you expect the study to yield? That H1B salaries are reasonably comparable to salaries for locals?
Do you want me to start quoting tobacco industry sponsored studies that found no link between smoking and lung cancer?
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@TunnelRat said:
I think that link supports my position as much, if not more than yours:
The H-1B visa program is controversial [5] Advocates say the program (and similar ones operated by other technologically-advanced countries) helps the host country maintain its technological as well as economic superiority by providing a steady flow of highly skilled professionals who may be in short supply domestically. It also provides an incentive for companies not to move their operations abroad. Recent data suggests, that this intent is not the guaranteed outcome.
The H-1B program has been criticized for displacing substantial numbers of experienced American citizen technical professionals or lowering wages enough to encourage them to abandon volatile careers in targeted fields such as computer technology. Although there are differing views on whether or not the H-1B visa is good for the U.S. economy, economist Milton Friedman has called the program a form of subsidy.[6].
Of course it is criticized. It is people like you who criticize it.
@TunnelRat said:
Currently the number of H-1B visas issued per year is limited to 65,000 with an additional 20,000 for those with U.S. graduate degrees and no limit for universities and non-profit and government research laboratories.
Hmmm... 20,000 of 85,000 visas are reserved for applications with US graduate degrees. And yet, TunnelRat has not met a single one with a US degree. Perhaps he isn't getting the jobs that actually require, like, smart people.
@TunnelRat said:
Other critics have argued that H-1B programs are distorting market forces within the U.S. by incentivising Indian nationals to flood U.S. graduate schools to earn Advanced degrees solely for the purpose of obtaining work visas, and at the same time de-incentivising U.S. citizens from earning technical degrees or continuing on to earn graduate degrees due to applicant pool flooding. For instance, at the undergraduate level, US-born engineering students constitute upwards of 90-95% of the student population, with a student pool that is larger than the number of foreign born nationals who apply to engineering graduate schools to earn advanced degrees. Yet, upwards of 50% of the advanced degrees conferred in technology are to foreign-born nationals.[7]
Well, what's the excuse here? If American students are too lazy or scared to compete with foreign nationals for advanced degrees, whose fault is that? Waah, waah the application pool is flooded.
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@zonker said:
Oh, and nice bit of intellectual dishonesty here. IndiaTimes InfoTech does not "say" anything on this issue. It merely quotes a study by CIS, which is a right-wing immigration-reduction oriented organization, and the outcome of the release of the study results.
What results did you expect the study to yield? That H1B salaries are reasonably comparable to salaries for locals?
Do you want me to start quoting tobacco industry sponsored studies that found no link between smoking and lung cancer?
Strawman, zonker. You really can't be saying that there isn't rampant fraud with the H1-B system and H1-Bs are getting payed prevailing wages, do you? According this this UC Davis professor:
The industry says the H-1B holders are needed to maintain its level of innovation. I, too, support facilitating the immigration of "the best and the brightest," but very few H-1B holders in the tech field are in that league. Government data show that the vast majority make, at most, in the $60,000 range (Intel's median is $65,000). Yet even non-techies know that the top talents in this field make more than $100,000. And the vast majority of awards for innovation in the field have gone to U.S.-born workers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/EDGOULJ5BC1.DTL
It appears that most H1-Bs, (75% are Indians that take jobs in I.T.), are fairly mediocre hacks making about 60K. You are telling me that CIOs cannot find people with those mundane skill sets among the ranks of U.S. techies?
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@TunnelRat said:
Strawman, zonker. You really can't be saying that there isn't rampant fraud with the H1-B system and H1-Bs are getting payed prevailing wages, do you?
Of course there is some fraud going on. In any system where there is money to be made, there is going to be fraud. But it is the exception, and not the rule.
About 20,000 of the 85,000 H1Bs from last year were acquired by the big Indian consulting companies you accuse of paying lower wages. How about the remaining 65000? Are they also being underpaid?
@TunnelRat said:
According this this UC Davis professor:
The industry says the H-1B holders are needed to maintain its level of innovation. I, too, support facilitating the immigration of "the best and the brightest," but very few H-1B holders in the tech field are in that league. Government data show that the vast majority make, at most, in the $60,000 range (Intel's median is $65,000). Yet even non-techies know that the top talents in this field make more than $100,000. And the vast majority of awards for innovation in the field have gone to U.S.-born workers.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/EDGOULJ5BC1.DTL
It appears that most H1-Bs, (75% are Indians that take jobs in I.T.), are fairly mediocre hacks making about 60K. You are telling me that CIOs cannot find people with those mundane skill sets among the ranks of U.S. techies?
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
Also, this guy (Norman Matloff) is well known for his anti-immigration and anti-H1B agenda. I wouldn't expect him to opine any different.
I can also start quoting from those who extol the H1B program. It wouldn't serve any purpose, because you believe what you believe, and for every fact you throw up or every citation you quote, I can cite an opposing opinion or a counter-balancing fact.
At the end of the day, the H1B program is here and the foreign workers you so despise are also here, and all your ranting and raving and passive resistance movements are going to achieve nothing but keep getting you fired.
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@zonker said:
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
I think my research reaffirms my anecdotal evidence -- H1-Bs for the most part are entry-level hacks with not much more experience than U.S. junior programmers. Almost all I have met are in their twenties with modest skills.
Although the U.S. developers may be just as bad programmers, they usually have better communications skills and aren't afraid to push back and challenge technical assumptions. The H1-Bs bring no such diversity of ideas to the table and are terrified of upsetting their bosses -- where they come from, they can't even eat at the same table with their bosses. Let's not deny the extreme cultural dynamics involved.
So, for about 50-75% of the wage of an American, I.T. managers get a mediocre programmer who will do whatever it takes to stay employed, depriving the workplace of the essential give-and-take that is required for good software development. Net/net, I think it is a bad deal for all parties.
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@TunnelRat said:
But what H1-Bs have to do with Europe, I don't know.
Actually everyone who wants to work in US must get an H1-B visa. On H1-B are not just people from India but I guess you didn't see any others. My friends are a real bargain because they have over 10 years of experience and each of them is capable of doing his job better than a bunch of people just coming out of any US university. That was my point.
Probably supporting your point, but yes my friends are underpaid, probably not as much as you suppose, but at least they can't take more than one week of vacation at a time, they have to work late or during the weekend etc. I guess in your eyes they are just a bunch of hardworking bastards bending their heads, who take the place of a lazy US citizen asking for say 50% more than they do and absolutely refusing to work since 6pm or during the weekend when the situation requires that?
I do agree to some point that trying to understand people with horrible accent who can barely speak english isn't pleasant and no joke but when I reach a guy with Indian accent on a support line I can barely figure out what he/she is explaining and most often they are useless - no joke that happened to me once - on the support line of a bank I was deceived and what the guy told me turned to be exactly the opposite. I guess the call center was in India so we're not even speaking about H1-Bs but some sort of outsourcing.
@TunnelRat said:
Your friends can come here, live ten to a room, and survive on a fraction of the wages an American developer needs
Hahahaha, man you're amusing... You may think of some gypsies or white trash people but certainly my friends are living in nice houses - one of them in Irvine (Orange County, CA) on his own house - yes he is complaining about the prices but he DOES pay the mortgage. Surprised? Other few are still renting and honestly their houses aren't as good as mine in Europe but they prefer the live in US so it's their choice - I prefer Europe... probably I'm just an old conservative bastard, who knows...
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75% of H1-Bs in the I.T. field are from India. Now is that fair to folks who want to come from Europe to work here?
Cleary there is some sort of favoritism going on. It always struck me as odd how one H1-B from India gets in a shop, and soon the whole place is filled with his buddies. The nepotism is rampant, and I've been on the short end of that stick.
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@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:
Make up your mind. Either the H1Bs are top talents accepting low wages or they are talentless hacks being paid what they deserve. If it is the former, then don't complain that they don't know what they are doing. If it is the latter, well they're getting what they deserve so they aren't being underpaid. Or do you think that talentless U.S. hacks deserve 100K jobs?
I think my research reaffirms my anecdotal evidence -- H1-Bs for the most part are entry-level hacks with not much more experience than U.S. junior programmers. Almost all I have met are in their twenties with modest skills.
You're evading the question. If indeed these crappy H1B programmers who are being paid 60K are being underpaid, how much should a crappy US programmer be paid?
@TunnelRat said:
Although the U.S. developers may be just as bad programmers, they usually have better communications skills and aren't afraid to push back and challenge technical assumptions. The H1-Bs bring no such diversity of ideas to the table and are terrified of upsetting their bosses -- where they come from, they can't even eat at the same table with their bosses. Let's not deny the extreme cultural dynamics involved.
Generalization, almost all inaccurate. You are taking characteristics of a minority and expanding it to cover the entirety. And who the hell cares if someone can eat at the same table as their bosses or not? I have worked with enough new-age vegans who are 100% white-bread WASPs and would not sit at the same table where meat was being eaten. I didn't care a rats ass about their eating habits, BECAUSE IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER. As usual, you find any reason you can to back up your own racist agenda.
@TunnelRat said:So, for about 50-75% of the wage of an American, I.T. managers get a mediocre programmer who will do whatever it takes to stay employed, depriving the workplace of the essential give-and-take that is required for good software development. Net/net, I think it is a bad deal for all parties.
And yet it continues. Do you think all Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc. all have their collective head up their ass and like losing money?
I think I would trust them to know more about what works in their business than a bitter, resentful malcontent.
p.s. What do you think of my communication skills? Do I pass your exacting standards?
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@zonker said:
@TunnelRat said:
According to IndiaTimes InfoTech:
H-1 B is a temporary visa programme that enables employers in US to hire professional level foreign workers for a period of up to six years. As per the US law, employers must pay H1-B workers either the same rate as other employees with similar skills or the ‘prevailing wage’ for that occupation and location, which ever is higher.
The December 2005 findings by Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), on whose basis two US Senators wrote to nine Indian firms asking for details of how 20,000 H1-B visas were used, reveal that such visa holders were being paid an average salary of $52,312 as against $65,003 to locals.
Oh, and nice bit of intellectual dishonesty here. IndiaTimes InfoTech does not "say" anything on this issue. It merely quotes a study by CIS, which is a right-wing immigration-reduction oriented organization, and the outcome of the release of the study results.
What results did you expect the study to yield? That H1B salaries are reasonably comparable to salaries for locals?
Do you want me to start quoting tobacco industry sponsored studies that found no link between smoking and lung cancer?
Anytime someone quotes a paper it is almost always a secondary statistic, since it is extremely rare that the actual new paper will actually conduct a study. And you can't say that he was being dishonest because he literally copied and pasted the exact text, and left in the part about the source being the CIS.
One thing I have noticed in this thread is that most of the arguments are not based on substantive facts or reasoning, but rather on slander attacks that attack the person and not the actual arguments. Watch out for phrases like these:
You are just a racist
That study is crap because it is made by a right-wing groupTunnelrat might not be right about everything he has said, but he has made some good points, and you calling him a racist really only makes you look stupid because you seem to think that doing so wins the argument. .
PS. The US might not have the best education system in the world (although it certainly isn't bad), but it absolutely has the best higher education system in the world (Yes, ever).
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@tster said:
Tunnelrat might not be right about everything he has said, but he has made some good points, and you calling him a racist really only makes you look stupid because you seem to think that doing so wins the argument. .
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
He only has a problem with asians who don't speak, look or eat like him.
You think he would have a problem with a fine Caucasian Swede who spoke broken English and ate <font size="2">surstromming for lunch every day?
</font>And do you care to cite the "good points" he has made?
@tster said:
PS. The US might not have the best education system in the world (although it certainly isn't bad), but it absolutely has the best higher education system in the world (Yes, ever).
You're preaching to the choir here. I absolutely agree 100% with you about this.
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@tster said:
Anytime someone quotes a paper it is almost always a secondary statistic, since it is extremely rare that the actual new paper will actually conduct a study. And you can't say that he was being dishonest because he literally copied and pasted the exact text, and left in the part about the source being the CIS.
And that's why most of these "papers" (in the academic parlance, most of them would be called "unpublished notes", not "papers") are devoid of scientific value. It's hard enough to work with secondary data and draw any kind of meaningful conclusions; secondary statistics are almost completely worthless in most cases.
Laymen look at statistical studies and all they see are the numbers at the bottom of the page (and that's all the media ever reports). It's just not that simple. Statistics is very complicated and entirely counter-intuitive. You can't take the numbers out of the context of their original paper and expect them to still mean very much. You have to work with the raw data, and you can only do that if the original study controlled all the variables that are relevant to yours.
Like most sciences, you cannot do statistics on the cheap. The study is not optional. If you leave it out then you're not doing science, you're doing creative writing.
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@asuffield said:
@tster said:
Anytime someone quotes a paper it is almost always a secondary statistic, since it is extremely rare that the actual new paper will actually conduct a study. And you can't say that he was being dishonest because he literally copied and pasted the exact text, and left in the part about the source being the CIS.
And that's why most of these "papers" (in the academic parlance, most of them would be called "unpublished notes", not "papers") are devoid of scientific value. It's hard enough to work with secondary data and draw any kind of meaningful conclusions; secondary statistics are almost completely worthless in most cases.
Laymen look at statistical studies and all they see are the numbers at the bottom of the page (and that's all the media ever reports). It's just not that simple. Statistics is very complicated and entirely counter-intuitive. You can't take the numbers out of the context of their original paper and expect them to still mean very much. You have to work with the raw data, and you can only do that if the original study controlled all the variables that are relevant to yours.
Like most sciences, you cannot do statistics on the cheap. The study is not optional. If you leave it out then you're not doing science, you're doing creative writing.
I wasn't clear enough. I meant news papars. They don't do the studies themselves because because their job is just to report about the studies. Although your points are well taken.
And zonkers,
Do you see what you did there? You said, "Oh no tster, he really is wrong because he REALLY is a racist and a homophobe and what-not." Please tell me that you can see how this is exactly what I was talking about!
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@tster said:
I wasn't clear enough. I meant news papars. They don't do the studies themselves because because their job is just to report about the studies.
Oh, heh. Well, they make the same basic mistake: the numbers are pretty much meaningless out of context. I can't even remember the last time I saw a media report on statistics that wasn't somewhere between "acutely misleading" and "wrong in every possible way". Sometimes I think it would be better if we just didn't allow the media to use numbers at all.
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@zonker said:
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/bhlog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
What, is there an problem here?
She was menopausal, a bitch, and a DBA. And she talked to me like a dog that had just shit on her rug.
And the H1-Bs I worked with ate curry, were not fluent in English, and worked for 30% less than I did. The last one I knew tried to peddle bootleg I.T. books.
Finally, Mr. Bill was clueless, and gayish. Not that there is anything wrong that, I just found it odd, and amusing. I mean, was he gay, or just gayish? There is a whole Seinfeld show that riffed on that - http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOuting.htm.
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p.s. What do you think of my communication skills? Do I pass your exacting standards?
And your writing skills are great, zonker. But please do not force me to post verbatim the emails I get from Indian recruiters -- they are shocking. Why did I have to take all those English classes to get my degree, and these illiterate H1-B clowns get to compete for my job? And please don't slam my grammer in my posts, this is an informal medium.
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@tster said:
One thing I have noticed in this thread is that most of the arguments are not based on substantive facts or reasoning, but rather on slander attacks that attack the person and not the actual arguments. Watch out for phrases like these:
You are just a racist
That study is crap because it is made by a right-wing groupThose are examples of the "ad hominem" and "circumstantial ad hominem" fallacies, respectively.
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Until I read this post I thought a H1B was a pencil.
TunnelRat, I've just spent a couple of informative hours on your "blog"
That Dashiell Hammett-esque prose is really working for you. You come across as really lame with a kick-arse attitude.
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@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/bhlog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
What, is there an problem here?
She was menopausal, a bitch, and a DBA.
Well, technically you don't know the first. And, for the second, the accusation of sexism comes not from simply the insult itself, but from the fact that there are plenty of other words you could have used, and, if the DBA were male, probably would have chosen a different one.
Finally, Mr. Bill was clueless, and gayish. Not that there is anything wrong that, I just found it odd, and amusing. I mean, was he gay, or just gayish? There is a whole Seinfeld show that riffed on that - http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOuting.htm.
I would say "The difference between you and Seinfeld is that you are not funny", but, really, that's not a difference.
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@TunnelRat said:
@zonker said:
Oh ho ho. It look like you don't know TunnelRat's history. Perhaps you should look that up first, before making comments like this. He ain't just racist- he's sexist and homophobic as a bonus.
Some tasty nuggets from TunnelRat:
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/09/menopausal-bitch-dba.html"]The Menopausal Bitch DBA[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/blog/2007/06/curry-eating-wage-pirates.html"]Curry Eating Wage Pirates[/url]
[url="http://integrityconsulting.net/bhlog/2006/10/meet-mr-bill.html"]Meet Mr. Bill, The Clueless, Gayish CIO[/url]
What, is there an problem here?
She was menopausal, a bitch, and a DBA. And she talked to me like a dog that had just shit on her rug.
And the H1-Bs I worked with ate curry, were not fluent in English, and worked for 30% less than I did. The last one I knew tried to peddle bootleg I.T. books.
Finally, Mr. Bill was clueless, and gayish. Not that there is anything wrong that, I just found it odd, and amusing. I mean, was he gay, or just gayish? There is a whole Seinfeld show that riffed on that - http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheOuting.htm.
Right, I think my work here is done.
The weekend is over and I just don't have the time to follow up on this any more, since I have to get back to the job I stole from a US worker before taking a lunch break to munch some delicious curry. Yum!
I shall watch with considerable interest your crusade to get all H1B's fired and shipped back home. My money is on it being a spectacular failure.
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@operagost said:
@tster said:
One thing I have noticed in this thread is that most of the arguments are not based on substantive facts or reasoning, but rather on slander attacks that attack the person and not the actual arguments. Watch out for phrases like these:
You are just a racist
That study is crap because it is made by a right-wing groupThose are examples of the "ad hominem" and "circumstantial ad hominem" fallacies, respectively.
This would be a valid and reasoned argument if you couldn't actually objectively prove he was a racist in addition to his one opinion provided here. However, because you can demonstrate objectively that he has a strong prejudice against people of specific races (namely indians), it's no longer a fallacy.
His entire premise and assertion is based upon his racist beliefs. The fact that he might make a good point is pure coincidence and doesn't lend any form of legitemacy to his argument as a whole. You are commiting a fallacy your own assuming a premise that has no logical basis is valid until proven otherwise (which is impossible). You can't argue his point because there's nothing to argue. He's a racist, his entire worldview is based upon an irrational presupposition.
Or to put it otherwise, an argument is not legitimized because a portion of it is true when the premise of the argument as a whole is invalid.
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Jeez, I need a f-ing DNA sequencer to decipher that logic. What the hell does all that mean? "I say he's a racist, so everything he says may be right, but that is just a coincedence, because I say he is a racist, because the premise of his racist argument is that he racist." Damn, I just curled myself in a ball of logic.
Anyway, I'll let this fine Indian gentleman make my point -- they are happy to flood the market with junior programmers working for 20-25% less the U.S. workers:
Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) vice president Phiroz Vandrevala even admitted that his company enjoys a competitive advantage because of its extensive use of foreign workers in the United States on H-1B and L-1 visas. "Our wage per employee is 20-25 per cent less than US wages for a similar employee," Vandrevala said. "Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. "This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It's a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there's nothing wrong in that. The issue is that of getting workers in the US on wages far lower than the local wage rate."
Now I'm sure someone will post "none of that is true, and if it is, it is pure coincidence because I say the guy is a racist, and everyone who disagrees with me is a racist...and I was taught in college to call people racists as soon as I started losing arguments with them! Rasict!"
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@ShadowWolf said:
@operagost said:
@tster said:
One thing I have noticed in this thread is that most of the arguments are not based on substantive facts or reasoning, but rather on slander attacks that attack the person and not the actual arguments. Watch out for phrases like these:
You are just a racist
That study is crap because it is made by a right-wing groupThose are examples of the "ad hominem" and "circumstantial ad hominem" fallacies, respectively.
This would be a valid and reasoned argument if you couldn't actually objectively prove he was a racist in addition to his one opinion provided here. However, because you can demonstrate objectively that he has a strong prejudice against people of specific races (namely indians), it's no longer a fallacy.
His entire premise and assertion is based upon his racist beliefs. The fact that he might make a good point is pure coincidence and doesn't lend any form of legitemacy to his argument as a whole. You are commiting a fallacy your own assuming a premise that has no logical basis is valid until proven otherwise (which is impossible). You can't argue his point because there's nothing to argue. He's a racist, his entire worldview is based upon an irrational presupposition.
Or to put it otherwise, an argument is not legitimized because a portion of it is true when the premise of the argument as a whole is invalid.
Once again, you are making the exact same mistake. You are trying to legitimize your own fallacy by applying the exact same fallacy. He has posted statistics (with sources) and made arguments. You simply say, "that is racist and therefore incorrect." However, much of what he is saying might be true. That doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't a racist, just that he isn't lying.
He says, "curry eating wage pirates." Then he goes on to elaborate that of all the Indians that he's known (which doesn't seem like very many) they all ate curry and all worked for less than the average American would be making if they had that job. Notice that his provocative statement is now backed by a reasoned argument. I happen to think that he is probably either somewhat racist or xenophobic, or at least fearful of an open, global market. My guess is that he is worried that he won't be able to compete as successfully when the market has more educated people. All I can say is, if you are good, there will be work.
BTW, I have worked pretty closely with perhaps 15-20 Indians and they only occasionally eat curry (like when we go out to a restaurant). I suppose the reason that rat complains about it is that his coworkers heated it in the microwave at work and made the office smell bad. If that is the case then I just have to tell you that most Indians do not do that. Imagine what a bunch of Indians would think if an American moved to India and cooked popcorn every day in the microwave. Almost no Americans would do that, but his coworkers might think it is common and think the same way you do.
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Then he goes on to elaborate that of all the Indians that he's known (which doesn't seem like very many) they all ate curry and all worked for less than the average American would be making if they had that job.
You have to be kidding me. This is a joke right? Please tell me you're just trolling. Did you even READ what I wrote or do you like jumping on your ad hom bandwagon too much? It's not an ad hom attack if it's true! You might wanna read up on that in your logical fallacies text book, especially the part on invalid major premises. Further, I never said that he wasn't right in some of things he says. I have no doubt that the vast studies demonstrating that a small portion of the H-1B population is not paid like they should be. However, I have never seen a study that demonstrates even 1/2 of the H-1Bs are underpaid. The H-1B visa program is not the same as farming work out to other countries or illegal immigration, both of which harmfully impact the local economy.
@tster said:
BTW, I have worked pretty closely with perhaps 15-20 Indians and they only occasionally eat curry (like when we go out to a restaurant). I suppose the reason that rat complains about it is that his coworkers heated it in the microwave at work and made the office smell bad. If that is the case then I just have to tell you that most Indians do not do that. Imagine what a bunch of Indians would think if an American moved to India and cooked popcorn every day in the microwave. Almost no Americans would do that, but his coworkers might think it is common and think the same way you do.
Put a sign up that says "Please close the door while cooking food" like the folks here at my work did. It's not rocket science. Further, it's stereotyping to assume that all indians eat curry and are "wage pirates" as a result of a very, very small sample as you conceed. Actually, you know what that is? It's a fallacy! You give him a pass for some odd reason for making sweeping generalizations, unsubstantiated claims, etc.
Oh - http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/i-rss090606.php this study is flawed because its about Salary. A salary is not the prevailing wage. H-1Bs do not need to be paid the same salary as an American worker. Please see my below link on how you can not only easily manipulate the prevailing wage calculations, but get safe harborage from it as well. Actually, if you read their article, they state this quite clearly. I missed the part:
"According to IEEE-USA Vice President Ron Hira, the concept of "prevailing wages" is worthless as a safeguard for U.S. and H-1B workers.
"Proponents of the H-1B program say that by law H-1B workers must receive prevailing wages, but this is a legal façade so full of loopholes that it is frequently gamed by employers to pay below-market wages," Hira said. "This is another myth of the H-1B program, that prevailing wages are the same as market wages.""
But really, how does he know about what they make? Most companies have policies against discussing wages at work. Does he have numbers to back this up? So far, all I've seen are his opinion and this one article. The issue with that is that it discusses the possiblity that the workers are being paid below prevailing wage. Prevailing wage is a term defined by the US Law here: http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/wages.cfm
Specifically you might wanna take a look at the part here:
"In addition, the H-1B, H-1B1, and E-3 programs require the employer to pay the prevailing wage or the actual wage paid by the employer to workers with similar skills and qualifications, whichever is higher"So first, he has to prove that workers with similar qualifications and skills are being paid below actual wage or prevailing wage. Where is that proof? If anything, he's demonstrated a clear lack of skills and understanding on the part of the H-1B worker and thus justified the substantially lower wages paid out. He's defeating his own argument in the process of making it.
I think the fact is this:
The H1-B program could use a re-write, but the issue is not the H1-B workers. Taking your frustration with our policy out on the people who are living by that policy is just stupid. Talk to your lawmaker. Don't be an ass. There's nothing wrong with H-1B visa workers. Oh, and there's plenty of existing evidence to substantiate mine (and other's) claim that TunnelRat is a racist. I can demonstrate that at home, but I won't visit his blog at work.or maybe...
DEY TUK URR JERRBS!
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Well, ShadowWolf, I guess we touched a nerve here. You had a good old geek meltdown there. You even had to conveniently ignore the quotes from Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) vice president Phiroz Vandrevala ("Our wage per employee is 20-25 per cent less than US wages for a similar employee,"...).
And then to top it of, you threw all logic aside and basically said we will never know if H-1Bs get paid less -- because there are policies against discussing wages? Nice.
Here's some more data:
When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/25/44OPreality_1.html
Now, you can go back to placing phony want ads so that you can dodge that irritating loophole about having to prove that no American workers can fill you programmer positions.
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@TunnelRat said:
Well, ShadowWolf, I guess we touched a nerve here. You had a good old geek meltdown there. You even had to conveniently ignore the quotes from Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) vice president Phiroz Vandrevala ("Our wage per employee is 20-25 per cent less than US wages for a similar employee,"...).
And then to top it of, you threw all logic aside and basically said we will never know if H-1Bs get paid less -- because there are policies against discussing wages? Nice.
Here's some more data:
When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/25/44OPreality_1.html
Now, you can go back to placing phony want ads so that you can dodge that irritating loophole about having to prove that no American workers can fill you programmer positions.
Salary != Prevailing Wage
And I said specifically YOU will not know if people are paid less because companies do not discuss wages publicly. You cannot know what the company's prevailing wage is and therefore cannot make a determination whether that person is being underpaid or not. Can you?
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One reason it is so easy for employers to underpay H-1B holders is because they know how to exploit the loopholes and have almost no chance of ever being investigated. Even if they were investigated, the loopholes are so large most of the employers would likely be found following the letter of the law. First, DOL's automated review of LCAs is limited to looking for missing information or obvious inaccuracies; no human looks at the applications. Second, if a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) review finds that an H-1B worker's income on the W-2 form is less than the wage on the original LCA, DHS does not have a way to report the discrepancy to DOL.
Again they state that the issue is the law and not the people. The issue you fail to realize is that the problem is the disconnect between Salary (what we're paid) and Prevailing Wage (what the law says is the equivalent wage for their job/skills).
*edit* Also - this has nothing to do with the issue about companies abusing the H-1B visa system to avoid hiring American workers, so keep that discussion seperate. This has to do with wonderful comments like "Curry eating wage pirate" for which I have accused you of being racist and the fact that your argument against these people is unfair and irrational. They've done no wrong. You hate them for no reason.
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IMO it doesn't harm American workers if H1-Bs are a bit cheaper, say 20%. After all, they don't know the country, laws, bureaucratic terms (What is a W2?), customs etc. Their language and communications skills may be lacking and the time limit on their visa makes them unreliable in the long term. Unless they have very special qualifications, that all adds to making them less valuable for the employer. An employer would have to be very greedy or disappointed by American workers to choose the cheaper H1-B over the slighly more expensive, but also much more independend native worker.
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@ammoQ said:
An employer would have to be very greedy or disappointed by American workers to choose the cheaper H1-B over the slighly more expensive, but also much more independend native worker.
They could also be very stupid.
American corporate management types have never had a shortage of stupidity.
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@asuffield said:
@ammoQ said:
An employer would have to be very greedy or disappointed by American workers to choose the cheaper H1-B over the slighly more expensive, but also much more independend native worker.
They could also be very stupid.
American corporate management types have never had a shortage of stupidity.
So you're saying that bottom line management, greed, and general mismanagement aren't quality corporate management concepts? </sarcasm>
That said, stupidity isn't reserved specifically for American Corporate Management types.
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@ShadowWolf said:
That said, stupidity isn't reserved specifically for American Corporate Management types.
There is certainly plenty more of it in the world, but that particular group is one place where you are guaranteed to find it.
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@ShadowWolf said:
Salary != Prevailing Wage
And I said specifically YOU will not know if people are paid less because companies do not discuss wages publicly. You cannot know what the company's prevailing wage is and therefore cannot make a determination whether that person is being underpaid or not. Can you?
Another concern I have is whether articles like this one from Infoword might actually be comparing apples to oranges.
Here's the thing: the OES salary estimates are for ALL programmers, from entry-level programmers to solution architects. OTOH, H1B workers are usually at the lower end of the programmer food-chain- i.e., they are brought in for most of the grunt work on software projects. So the salaries paid to them, and hence the overall average, will naturally be lower than the OES numbers. Whether this difference is as large as the $20K that InfoWorld says, I do not know. But in the absence of any sort of accurate estimates, such comparisions are meaningless.
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@ShadowWolf said:
Then he goes on to elaborate that of all the Indians that he's known (which doesn't seem like very many) they all ate curry and all worked for less than the average American would be making if they had that job.
You have to be kidding me. This is a joke right? Please tell me you're just trolling. Did you even READ what I wrote or do you like jumping on your ad hom bandwagon too much? It's not an ad hom attack if it's true! You might wanna read up on that in your logical fallacies text book, especially the part on invalid major premises. Further, I never said that he wasn't right in some of things he says. I have no doubt that the vast studies demonstrating that a small portion of the H-1B population is not paid like they should be. However, I have never seen a study that demonstrates even 1/2 of the H-1Bs are underpaid. The H-1B visa program is not the same as farming work out to other countries or illegal immigration, both of which harmfully impact the local economy.
OK. Please point out to me what in the sentence you quoted is wrong or misguided. All I did was state his argument in a concise manner. Once again, his argument is that of all the Indians he knew, they all exhibited this behavior. Can you prove that this is not true? I didn't think so. Now before you get all huffy and say , "Well! He is a racist for coming to that conclusion from that evidence," please read further.
@ShadowWolf said:
@tster said:
BTW, I have worked pretty closely with perhaps 15-20 Indians and they only occasionally eat curry (like when we go out to a restaurant). I suppose the reason that rat complains about it is that his coworkers heated it in the microwave at work and made the office smell bad. If that is the case then I just have to tell you that most Indians do not do that. Imagine what a bunch of Indians would think if an American moved to India and cooked popcorn every day in the microwave. Almost no Americans would do that, but his coworkers might think it is common and think the same way you do.
Put a sign up that says "Please close the door while cooking food" like the folks here at my work did. It's not rocket science. Further, it's stereotyping to assume that all indians eat curry and are "wage pirates" as a result of a very, very small sample as you conceed. Actually, you know what that is? It's a fallacy! You give him a pass for some odd reason for making sweeping generalizations, unsubstantiated claims, etc.
blah blah blah....
You really don't read very well do you. I was explaining to you his argument for why he calls them "curry eating wage pirates." I did not back up that argument or even imply that his argument was in any way reasonable. However, until this post, you NEVER actually bothered to argue a point or a reason, instead just labeling the other party a "racist" and thinking that that automatically wins you the argument. Yes, in fact he is obviously wrong to come to a conclusion from such a small sample. Now, please point out to me where I "gave him a pass." I don't remember doing such a thing. All I did was point out that your personal attacks on him were childish and would fail to persuade any but the most stupid of audience. Really, you should be thanking me for pointing out your fallacy and correcting it so that you can help those that don't understand your point to see the light. All I did was prompt you to actually post something material of discussion instead of stupid back and forth personal insults.
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@zonker said:
@ShadowWolf said:
Salary != Prevailing Wage
And I said specifically YOU will not know if people are paid less because companies do not discuss wages publicly. You cannot know what the company's prevailing wage is and therefore cannot make a determination whether that person is being underpaid or not. Can you?
Another concern I have is whether articles like this one from Infoword might actually be comparing apples to oranges.
Here's the thing: the OES salary estimates are for ALL programmers, from entry-level programmers to solution architects. OTOH, H1B workers are usually at the lower end of the programmer food-chain- i.e., they are brought in for most of the grunt work on software projects. So the salaries paid to them, and hence the overall average, will naturally be lower than the OES numbers. Whether this difference is as large as the $20K that InfoWorld says, I do not know. But in the absence of any sort of accurate estimates, such comparisions are meaningless.
This is an excellent point.
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@zonker said:
Another concern I have is whether articles like this one from Infoword might actually be comparing apples to oranges.
Here's the thing: the OES salary estimates are for ALL programmers, from entry-level programmers to solution architects. OTOH, H1B workers are usually at the lower end of the programmer food-chain- i.e., they are brought in for most of the grunt work on software projects. So the salaries paid to them, and hence the overall average, will naturally be lower than the OES numbers. Whether this difference is as large as the $20K that InfoWorld says, I do not know. But in the absence of any sort of accurate estimates, such comparisions are meaningless.
And quite aside from dubious use of averages, the usual range of problems with salary measurements apply. There is a culture of unpaid overtime in the western software industry, particularly in the US. People frequently do up to 50% more hours than their contract actually says, for the same salary. Whether or not you count this obviously has a major impact on the numbers. Dishonest (or simply ignorant) people frequently use this to skew the numbers in favour of whatever point they want to make.
Hence, whenever somebody quotes salary figures for the software industry, the first two questions to ask are:
- What's your source?
- How did that source compute their figures?
Closely followed by:
- Exactly where do these people live?
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@asuffield said:
And quite aside from dubious use of averages, the usual range of problems with salary measurements apply. There is a culture of unpaid overtime in the western software industry, particularly in the US. People frequently do up to 50% more hours than their contract actually says, for the same salary.
I'd really like to see a survey of how many hours people really have to work for their salary. For example, here in Austria, at least in the companies I know, wages are relatively low (40K-60K EUR p.a. for an experienced developer) compared to the U.S. figures I read here, but overtime is paid or doesn't happen. (And of course, because of the Austrian tax and social security system, you have to add another 10K or so the employer has to pay additionally to the official salary)
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tster:
Regardless, I can't but say the same things over & over at this point. You're reading short bits of my post and targeting them directly and I'm doing the same to you. I wish you'd take a few seconds to understand that there's a good reason some of us were kinda immediately reacting negatively to the stuff TunnelRat posted, but I don't think you will. So I'm done at this point with arguing that point with you. It's not worth the time or effort from either one of us in my opinion.
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Yeah, they didn't really fall for the "I say he's a racist, therefore anything he says is wrong" logic. Or the "We will never know what programmers make because there are rules against discussing wages" tact.
Anyway, we now return you to our regularly scheduled programming...
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@TunnelRat said:
Yeah, they didn't really fall for the "I say he's a racist, therefore anything he says is wrong" logic. Or the "We will never know what programmers make because there are rules against discussing wages" tact.
Anyway, we now return you to our regularly scheduled programming...
Eh?
