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AI

Last post 02-13-2008 9:46 AM by galgorah. 15 replies.
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  • 04-10-2007 1:53 PM

    Why are there no coder challenges involving heuristics or AI?  I would love to see an example of how one could implement a simple tic-tac-toe AI that can be trained to be unbeatable...
  • 04-10-2007 2:52 PM In reply to

    • kirchhoff
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-27-2007
    • ECE 280 (Circuit Analysis)
    • Posts 216

    Re: AI

    Well that's a bad example, as tic tac toe is "solved". If the computer goes first, it can always win trivially.
  • 04-10-2007 3:35 PM In reply to

    • rmr
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-23-2006
    • Posts 142

    Re: AI

    Well, why don't you post a challenge then?
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  • 04-10-2007 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    Well, how about three dimentional tic-tac-toe then?

    Minimum filed size 4x4x4

    Any full line of 4 wins (that includes lines on diagonal planes)

    We can even define a simple output format and have bot fights!

    (Were did half of my post go? >_<)

  • 04-10-2007 5:55 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    Nope, any experts game is a cat game.

    The best move is not to waste your time.

  • 04-10-2007 6:44 PM In reply to

    • kirchhoff
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-27-2007
    • ECE 280 (Circuit Analysis)
    • Posts 216

    Re: AI

    Qubic is solved too.

    For large numbers of dimensions, sizes and required line lengths, the game isn't solved but various proofs to show that with "perfect play" win/draw strategies do exist.

    You might want to look at Go-Moku (5 square length lines; 9, 13 or 15x15 sized board). But it's still a flawed game; in that black (the one who goes first) has a ton of restrictions about opening chip formations that cause the game to go white-reactionary-defense; preventing strategic play.

    That those rules exist suggest that the game mechanic is too simple. 

  • 04-10-2007 11:28 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    You have little or no chance of being able to implement a worthwhile "AI" for any problem unless you have studied AI design at the postgraduate level. The number of people here who have done that probably approximates zero, and anyway such people are unlikely to be interested in challenges like that.

    It's a really, really hard problem. Not something you can knock off in a couple of days.

  • 04-12-2007 3:13 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    asuffield:

    You have little or no chance of being able to implement a worthwhile "AI" for any problem unless you have studied AI design at the postgraduate level. The number of people here who have done that probably approximates zero, and anyway such people are unlikely to be interested in challenges like that.

    It's a really, really hard problem. Not something you can knock off in a couple of days.

     That was a disheartening response...  To think that AI cannot be pursued as a hobby.

  • 04-12-2007 4:38 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    RaspenJho:
    asuffield:

    You have little or no chance of being able to implement a worthwhile "AI" for any problem unless you have studied AI design at the postgraduate level. The number of people here who have done that probably approximates zero, and anyway such people are unlikely to be interested in challenges like that.

    It's a really, really hard problem. Not something you can knock off in a couple of days.

     That was a disheartening response...  To think that AI cannot be pursued as a hobby.

    It can be pursued as a hobby, but only in the sense that martial arts or playing the violin can be pursued as a hobby. You can't just pick it up one day and make any progress by the end of the week, it takes years of serious, dedicated effort to get good enough.

  • 05-07-2007 8:52 AM In reply to

    Re: AI

     I have been studying AI for years.  Why don't people try to make a program that solves the "8 puzzle" It consists of a 3x3 grid with numbers 1-8 on tiles in the grid and one empty space. Tiles can be slid into the empty square only if it is adjacent.  we start with a random configuration for this problem and our goal state is illustrated below. 

     1 2 3

     8    4

     7 6 5

     this is usualy doable in around 20 moves or so. Thus your search tree will have a depth of around 20.  This should satisfy everyone as its a textbook example for beginner AI. enjoy.   

    "Void* is not actually void*" - Best error message EVER!

    My method of measuring code quality is to ask myself if I would rather have herpes or maintain the code in question. In this case I would choose death by herpes. --akatherder

    People who work in VB or any variant thereof are not programmers, they are circus chimps throwing feces into an IDE... --chebrock

    My dad chased him off with a shotgun, which apparently pissed this guy off so much he felt the need to strip naked, sit in the middle of his front yard, and chop up live kittens with a machete to feed to his pet boa.
  • 05-07-2007 9:01 AM In reply to

    • tster
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-11-2006
    • Natick, MA
    • Posts 1,334

    Re: AI

    galgorah:

     I have been studying AI for years.  Why don't people try to make a program that solves the "8 puzzle" It consists of a 3x3 grid with numbers 1-8 on tiles in the grid and one empty space. Tiles can be slid into the empty square only if it is adjacent.  we start with a random configuration for this problem and our goal state is illustrated below. 

     1 2 3

     8    4

     7 6 5

     this is usualy doable in around 20 moves or so. Thus your search tree will have a depth of around 20.  This should satisfy everyone as its a textbook example for beginner AI. enjoy.   

    I think that anything that can be solved quickly using an exhuastive search is not much of "AI". 

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  • 05-07-2007 9:37 AM In reply to

    Re: AI

    The idea is not make an exhaustive search although it can be solved that way.  you can use Heuristics to cut out part of the search tree for example.  Search trees are actually rather common tools in AI not always the best.  I could put up harder problems but they would require a lot of research for those not familiar with AI to solve. This exercise is more about the method used to solve.  Search trees are part of AI.  one of the basic tools.  We (humans) use them everyday.  I won't argue what is and isn't AI with you since AI is a broad term that first requires you to define intelligence.  There is a philosphical aspect to the study.

    "Void* is not actually void*" - Best error message EVER!

    My method of measuring code quality is to ask myself if I would rather have herpes or maintain the code in question. In this case I would choose death by herpes. --akatherder

    People who work in VB or any variant thereof are not programmers, they are circus chimps throwing feces into an IDE... --chebrock

    My dad chased him off with a shotgun, which apparently pissed this guy off so much he felt the need to strip naked, sit in the middle of his front yard, and chop up live kittens with a machete to feed to his pet boa.
  • 05-07-2007 3:51 PM In reply to

    • webzter
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 11-10-2006
    • Minneapolis, MN USA
    • Posts 202

    Re: AI

    I can easily write a program that exibits artificial intelligence in a corporate IT environment:

    while(true)
    {

       Console.WriteLine("Did you remember to put the new cover on your TPS report?");

    }

  • 07-12-2007 2:26 PM In reply to

    Re: AI

    While not many people may be interested here... there is AI competitions. Heck, IBM even has a few. I like CodeRuler the best - http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/coderuler

     

  • 07-18-2007 11:38 AM In reply to

    Re: AI

    CapitalT:
    The best move is not to waste your time.

    A strange game. It seems the only way to win is not to play.
     

    Agile Team-Oriented Waterfall-Centric Cowboy Coder.
  • 02-13-2008 9:46 AM In reply to

    Re: AI

    so does anyone want to take a crack at the 8-puzzle problem?

    "Void* is not actually void*" - Best error message EVER!

    My method of measuring code quality is to ask myself if I would rather have herpes or maintain the code in question. In this case I would choose death by herpes. --akatherder

    People who work in VB or any variant thereof are not programmers, they are circus chimps throwing feces into an IDE... --chebrock

    My dad chased him off with a shotgun, which apparently pissed this guy off so much he felt the need to strip naked, sit in the middle of his front yard, and chop up live kittens with a machete to feed to his pet boa.
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