Best place to store business critical documents? Try Outlook deleted items!
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@ASheridan2 said:
@blakeyrat said:
Another reason why having a sense of humor is better than being Sheridan.
Is that the best you could do?No but if I exposed you to my full wit, your brain would explode and then you'd have to clean your curtains.
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@blakeyrat said:
@MiffTheFox said:
System 7 predates Windows 95'd that for you.
... yeah and System 1.0 predates System 7. And GeOS predates Windows 95. Also Amiga. Also... why the hell are you being so selective OS-wise?
System 7 was like the WORST Mac OS. Why would you pick it out of the dozens of systems before Windows 95 that had trash can? Ugh I hated System 7. Did you know you could corrupt your entire system, for all time, by simply dragging a font out of the "System Folder:Fonts" folder? That perfectly innocent action? Bam. Broken system. Also it wouldn't run Carrier Command.
System 7 was the first Mac OS to have the trash persist. Previous versions stored the trash in RAM and cleared it on reboot. I couldn't find any evidence of a persistent GUI trash/recycle bin that predates this in any OS btw.
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@FrostCat said:
I think the only way you can really stop this is by capping people's mailbox size. Then again, that's a horrible thing to do in this day and age.
As the person that administers our company's Exchange server, I can tell you this makes things much worse and me crazy. We have an old server with an old version of Exchange (which I have *finally* got approval to replace) so we have mailbox limits that send warnings and finally disallow the sending of email when the max is hit. I regularly have exchanges like this:
User: I just had to delete some email to be able send email, I need you to increase my limit
Me: I just increased your limit a couple months ago, have you tried emptying your deleted items folder and archiving sent items?
User: But I might need my delete items
Me: Then why did you delete them? If you need them then just archive them
User, cc'ing their boss, my boss, sometimes the CEO: I don't have time to go through my deleted items, I need my mailbox increased now!
Boss(es), CEO: (politely tell me to increase their mailbox limit or find a new job ...)
I increase their mailbox, creeping even closer to a full HD
Rinse, two months later repeat
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@error_NoError said:
I increase their mailbox, creeping even closer to a full HD
Full HD? Not hit the database size limit (which IIRC was something like 64GB in Exchange 2003)?
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People really shouldn't have to delete their emails, though. Storage is cheap. A lot cheaper than the hours wasted combing through a mountain of emails to find unworthy ones.
@blakeyrat said:
I also agree that while the ability to recover deleted files is a great feature (and, oh BTW, the CLI everybody loves so much doesn't fucking have it, so good luck if you make a typo)
Sure it does. I use it all the time:
mv file /tmp
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Doesn't work if the two files you are moving share the same name; it overwrites the older one.
It doesn't work at all if they are folders with the same name.
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Uh, thanks for the clarification. I was kind of joking, as it really isn't the same thing. But I do use /tmp for that.
@Salamander said:
Doesn't work if the two files you are moving share the same name; it overwrites the older one.
Not a problem. This is compatible with "contents get deleted at an unpredictable time."
@Salamander said:
It doesn't work at all if they are folders with the same name.
It doesn't break either. It just means I gotta try again with a unique name.
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@Anketam said:
People view their deleted items much like they view the recycling bin. Deleted stuff goes there, but they think they should be able to undo the delete no matter how long it is in there, and that it should not be perm deleted until they hit the empty recycling bin button.
But you can't continue to edit a document in the recycle bin unless you retrieve it. Deleted items is more permissive. Perhaps that's a minor technical flaw or oversight on the part of the developer that the user is even allowed to continue this way, but really, don't these people read?
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@blakeyrat said:
No but if I exposed you to my full
witstupid-dumbfuckery, your brain would explode and then you'd have to clean your curtains.ftfy
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@Soviut said:
but really, don't these people read?
No, they're the same people who print out that really long footer you seem to find on so many business emails that says "save the trees and don't print what you don't need", except that footer now means that quite a bit more paper is wasted.
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@ASheridan2 said:
@blakeyrat said:
No but if I exposed you to my full
witstupid-dumbfuckery, your brain would explode and then you'd have to clean your curtains.ftfy
I see we're too late!
Now who's going to foot the bill for the curtain cleaners?
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@dhromed said:
@ASheridan2 said:
@blakeyrat said:
No but if I exposed you to my full
witstupid-dumbfuckery, your brain would explode and then you'd have to clean your curtains.ftfy
I see we're too late!
Now who's going to foot the bill for the curtain cleaners?
Anyone with half a brain can do that.
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@Anketam said:
Microsoft taught people that things in the recycling bin don't magicly vanish
The thing is, though, they do.
The other thing is that it doesn't happen until the recycle bin is at quota capacity, which with modern disk sizes usually takes more than long enough to lull the user into a false sense of security.
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@superjer said:
People really shouldn't have to delete their emails, though. Storage is cheap. A lot cheaper than the hours wasted combing through a mountain of emails to find unworthy ones.
@blakeyrat said:
I also agree that while the ability to recover deleted files is a great feature (and, oh BTW, the CLI everybody loves so much doesn't fucking have it, so good luck if you make a typo)
Sure it does. I use it all the time:
mv file /tmp
echo "alias rb='mv --backup=numbered --target-directory=/tmp'" >>.bash_profile
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@flabdablet said:
usually takes more than long enough to lull the user into a false sense of security.
I am lulled, indeed.
I also regularly empty it. And I've set my delete key in explorer to not give a confirmation dialog before deleting, because it just teaches me to Confirm Everything.
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Testing that:
stephen@jellyfish:~$ rm -rf /tmp/foo* stephen@jellyfish:~$ alias rb='mv --backup=numbered --target-directory=/tmp' stephen@jellyfish:~$ touch foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ touch foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ mkdir foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ touch foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ mkdir foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ touch foo/bar stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ touch foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ rb foo stephen@jellyfish:~$ ls -al /tmp/foo* -rw-r--r-- 1 stephen stephen 0 Jan 11 22:25 /tmp/foo -rw-r--r-- 1 stephen stephen 0 Jan 11 22:24 /tmp/foo.~1~ -rw-r--r-- 1 stephen stephen 0 Jan 11 22:24 /tmp/foo.~2~ -rw-r--r-- 1 stephen stephen 0 Jan 11 22:24 /tmp/foo.~4~ /tmp/foo.~3~: total 16 drwxr-xr-x 2 stephen stephen 4096 Jan 11 22:24 . drwxrwxrwt 9 root root 12288 Jan 11 22:25 .. /tmp/foo.~5~: total 16 drwxr-xr-x 2 stephen stephen 4096 Jan 11 22:24 . drwxrwxrwt 9 root root 12288 Jan 11 22:25 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 stephen stephen 0 Jan 11 22:24 bar stephen@jellyfish:~$
No instantly obvious misbehaviour.
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I want to make an Outlook add-in that has a little animated garbage truck drive up and collect/dispose of the Deleted Items every couple of hours. Then roll it out via Group Policy. Then watch the fun begin.
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You have my love.
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Bob should drive.
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I'm straining to figure out why anyone would use Outlook as a mail client unless it's an Exchange server, and why anyone would use Exchange as a mail server without a retention policy that automatically purges old messages based on requirements imposed by the Legal department...
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One of the places we service had us put in a GPO to prompt them to empty it every time they exit Outlook. They can click "no" if they want to use it for storage. This prompt reminds them that it's not permanent storage, though. But this place also enforces 500 MB mailbox quotas...
Also, there is a recover deleted items feature that has the emails in many cases after removed from the deleted items, but the option is often overlooked.
One thing I tell new techs is to never empty deleted items or the recycle bin. Ever. Those that don't listen learn the hard way when the customer accuses them of deleting their data. All they were trying to do was free up some space or resolve a blown-quota issue. Because they never actually exceed their quota, and there is most certainly something wrong with the system that IT needs involved in when they get an email about a blown-quota.
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@blakeyrat said:
and, oh BTW, the CLI everybody loves so much doesn't fucking have it, so good luck if you make a typo
[url=http://jpsoft.com/]Mine[/url] [url=http://jpsoft.com/help/del.htm#r]does[/url]. And you can set it to [url=http://jpsoft.com/help/inistartupdlg.htm]use it by default[/url].
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@Sir Twist said:
@blakeyrat said:
and, oh BTW, the CLI everybody loves so much doesn't fucking have it, so good luck if you make a typo
Mine does. And you can set it to use it by default.I love how that second link opens a new tab, scrolls to the bottom, and then closes the tab. It gave me that creepy feeling of some malware driving my browser.
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@cconroy said:
J and U. If the Romans didn't need them, neither do we.
Yea, but they were nuts. N V T S, Nuts!
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@joe.edwards said:
I love how that second link opens a new tab, scrolls to the bottom, and then closes the tab. It gave me that creepy feeling of some malware driving my browser.
Only on webkit, apparently. IE 10 and FFX don’t seem to have this problem. Tested on FFX 16 and IE 9 on Win 7 and FFX 18 on Android with no problem; The default browser on my note 2 exhibits the behavior.So, which are you using? Chrome, Safari, or whatsit, KHTML?
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@flabdablet said:
alias rb='mv --backup=numbered --target-directory=/tmp'
That's neat and stuff. I'm glad you didn't alias away rm.
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
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@superjer said:
@flabdablet said:
alias rb='mv --backup=numbered --target-directory=/tmp'
That's neat and stuff. I'm glad you didn't alias away rm.
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
Norton GoBack saved me from this a couple times, before my love-hate relationship with Norton tilted violently toward hate.
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@superjer said:
@flabdablet said:
alias rb='mv --backup=numbered --target-directory=/tmp'
That's neat and stuff. I'm glad you didn't alias away rm.
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
If you keep everything in your Dropbox folder, you get this feature.
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@joe.edwards said:
@superjer said:
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
Norton GoBack saved me from this a couple times, before my love-hate relationship with Norton tilted violently toward hate.
GoBack caused/contributed to the demise of one of my hard drives. Conservatively, the wackadoo partition confused my recovery software, even if it was not at fault. I lost everything since my last weekly backup.
Now I use Shadow Copy when I'm on Windows.
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@trainbrain27 said:
I have a much better system that uses even less disk space! I don't have any files on my computer. Or anywhere.@joe.edwards said:
@superjer said:
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
Norton GoBack saved me from this a couple times, before my love-hate relationship with Norton tilted violently toward hate.
GoBack caused/contributed to the demise of one of my hard drives. Conservatively, the wackadoo partition confused my recovery software, even if it was not at fault. I lost everything since my last weekly backup.
Now I use Shadow Copy when I'm on Windows.
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To be fair, the folder is called "deleteD items". Not "items that WILL be deleted". You can't really delete something twice, can you?
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@superjer said:
What I really want is for GUI file managers to recycle overwritten files, not just deleted ones. I rarely delete by mistake, but I overwrite by mistake all the time.
Windows Explorer really does suck as a file manager these days, it's just not changed in the past 8 years whilst the rest of the OS has moved on quite considerably.My preferred one on Windows is Konqueror, which gives better control when you overwrite files, giving you a lot more info than Explorer (although Explorer got better at this in Vista, it's still not quite as good) and better choices to stop you messing something up. It won't protect if you overwrite files, but it helps stop that before it happens. Add to that the split panes and tabbed interface, I get more done without having to have tons of Explorer windows open all over the place.
If that's not your cup of tea, I've heard good stuff about Midnight Commander, but not used it myself so can't really say either way what it's like.
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@ASheridan2 said:
Add to that the split panes and tabbed interface, I get more done without having to have tons of Explorer windows open all over the place.
If I want to do serious file managing, I use Total Commander. I use it at work, and for multi-file projects at home, such as Minecraft texture packs, which require overview of many files in several folders.
For simple lookup, standard Explorer is still the better choice, but I think that's just because TC's folder pane isn't as good. I'm glad that Explorer's folder pane auto-scroll bug was fixed in Win8.
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If Explorer at least just added a tabbed interface it would be so much more useful. I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
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@ASheridan2 said:
If Explorer at least just added a tabbed interface
And split pane.
@ASheridan2 said:
I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
I'm 99% sure you have absolutely no intention of working on that tabbed interface if Explorer was open source.
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@dhromed said:
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
I was highlighting the irony of the posts diametrically opposed to this that suggest having source code available makes bad things happen.@dhromed said:
I'm 99% sure you have absolutely no intention of working on that tabbed interface if Explorer was open source.
True. I would only amend the source code for software I would use, and for me, viable and suitable alternatives do exist, so there's no need. I have contributed small amounts of code to open source projects before, but that does tend to be when the software is 99% of what I need already, and I only need to add the 1% I want. I'm not one of these bearded open source troglodytes who shout out the benefits of open source without actually taking advantage of those benefits myself.
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@dhromed said:
@ASheridan2 said:
I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
It's not automatic, but if an open source project had the same size user base as Windows Explorer, it'd be a virtual certainty that someone or other would take the time to implement a much-wanted feature like tabs.
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Fuck tabs, what about a spatial interface?
Split pane? Seriously? I'm sorry, is it 1988 again? Didn't we all decide decades ago that that concept was stupid, awful, confusing and useless?
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@blakeyrat said:
Fuck tabs, what about a spatial interface?
Split pane? Seriously? I'm sorry, is it 1988 again? Didn't we all decide decades ago that that concept was stupid, awful, confusing and useless?
Why have a split panel when you can have multiple windows anyway? Is the ability to move folder views on your screen too scary?
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@joe.edwards said:
@dhromed said:
@ASheridan2 said:
I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
It's not automatic, but if an open source project had the same size user base as Windows Explorer, it'd be a virtual certainty that someone or other would take the time to implement a much-wanted feature like tabs.
If that were true, the GIMP would have a lot more features (such as adjustment layers).
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@blakeyrat said:
Fuck tabs, what about a spatial interface?
Yeah, because no browser at the moment uses tabs do they? Oh wait, they do.@blakeyrat said:
Split pane? Seriously? I'm sorry, is it 1988 again? Didn't we all decide decades ago that that concept was stupid, awful, confusing and useless?
Split pane is useful, and still the way that the majority of FTP clients display local and remote files
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@toon said:
@joe.edwards said:
The usefulness of a layer you can't draw on is debatable. If you want to overlay light blue, then make a light blue layer and set it to overlay. It's simpler and it does the same thing.@dhromed said:
@ASheridan2 said:
I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
It's not automatic, but if an open source project had the same size user base as Windows Explorer, it'd be a virtual certainty that someone or other would take the time to implement a much-wanted feature like tabs.
If that were true, the GIMP would have a lot more features (such as adjustment layers).
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@Ben L. said:
@toon said:
@joe.edwards said:
The usefulness of a layer you can't draw on is debatable. If you want to overlay light blue, then make a light blue layer and set it to overlay. It's simpler and it does the same thing.@dhromed said:
@ASheridan2 said:
I suppose someone could get the source and add that feature... oh no, they can't, because it's closed source and we have to stick with whatever sucky features it's built with.
You make it sound as if availability of source automatically causes good things like this to happen.
It's not automatic, but if an open source project had the same size user base as Windows Explorer, it'd be a virtual certainty that someone or other would take the time to implement a much-wanted feature like tabs.
If that were true, the GIMP would have a lot more features (such as adjustment layers).
Why would you use an adjustment layer for something a normal layer can do? Oh, because you don't know what they're capable of.
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@ASheridan2 said:
A split pane is useful in cases where you have a state. Explorer is more or less stateless. Make a change in one window, it's there in all the others. No mumbo-jumbo needed, just a filesystem.@blakeyrat said:
Split pane? Seriously? I'm sorry, is it 1988 again? Didn't we all decide decades ago that that concept was stupid, awful, confusing and useless?
Split pane is useful, and still the way that the majority of FTP clients display local and remote files
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@ASheridan2 said:
@blakeyrat said:
Split pane? Seriously? I'm sorry, is it 1988 again? Didn't we all decide decades ago that that concept was stupid, awful, confusing and useless?
Split pane is useful, and still the way that the majority of FTP clients display local and remote filesIt slightly makes sense in an FTP client (because the remote pane always shows a completely different file environment) but it's still stupid.
A better FTP client will show only the remote files, and enable drag&drop... then you can use Explorer as your local folder. And as Ben L says, if you want the windows in a particular location on screen you can *gasp* DRAG THEM THERE!
I bet 90% of the time you use a split pane FTP client, you end up opening the local half of the pane in Explorer sooner or later anyway, right? Right? Admit it, I'm right.
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@blakeyrat said:
It slightly makes sense in an FTP client (because the remote pane *always* shows a completely different file environment) but it's still stupid.
You might think it's stupid, but it's the preferred layout for FTP clients for more than shits and giggles.@blakeyrat said:
I bet 90% of the time you use a split pane FTP client, you end up opening the local half of the pane in Explorer sooner or later anyway, right? Right? Admit it, I'm right.
Sort of, not. I use my file manager to connect to FTP too, so there's no need to have a separate window open.Split panes are useful for more than just FTP though. I work in web development for a living. It makes it a hell of a lot easier when I'm working on a project to have a pane open to the project files, and another to a directory of assets (which aren't necessarily ready for using in a website immediately). Sure, I could have two Explorer windows open, but what happens when I need to work on 2, 3, or more projects at a time? It happens, especially in design agencies, and the amount of time lost switching between projects on average is ridiculous. Split panes reduces that time for me, so I'm all for it. But no way am I going to be as productive using Explorer if I am forced to either have half a dozen Explorer windows open or open/close different sets of Explorer windows all the time.
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@ASheridan2 said:
@blakeyrat said:
It slightly makes sense in an FTP client (because the remote pane always shows a completely different file environment) but it's still stupid.
You might think it's stupid, but it's the preferred layout for FTP clients for more than shits and giggles.@blakeyrat said:
I bet 90% of the time you use a split pane FTP client, you end up opening the local half of the pane in Explorer sooner or later anyway, right? Right? Admit it, I'm right.
Sort of, not. I use my file manager to connect to FTP too, so there's no need to have a separate window open.Split panes are useful for more than just FTP though. I work in web development for a living. It makes it a hell of a lot easier when I'm working on a project to have a pane open to the project files, and another to a directory of assets (which aren't necessarily ready for using in a website immediately). Sure, I could have two Explorer windows open, but what happens when I need to work on 2, 3, or more projects at a time? It happens, especially in design agencies, and the amount of time lost switching between projects on average is ridiculous. Split panes reduces that time for me, so I'm all for it.
Sounds like you need split workspaces, not split explorer panes.
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@Ben L. said:
Sounds like you need split workspaces, not split explorer panes.
Yeah, I miss that in Windows too, but I can manage without it. Trying to do without a decent file manager is like giving a neurosurgen a flint knife and expect them to perform brain surgery.
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@ASheridan2 said:
Split panes are useful for more than just FTP though. I work in web development for a living. It makes it a hell of a lot easier when I'm working on a project to have a pane open to the project files, and another to a directory of assets (which aren't necessarily ready for using in a website immediately). Sure, I could have two Explorer windows open, but what happens when I need to work on 2, 3, or more projects at a time? It happens, especially in design agencies, and the amount of time lost switching between projects on average is ridiculous. Split panes reduces that time for me, so I'm all for it. But no way am I going to be as productive using Explorer if I am forced to either have half a dozen Explorer windows open or open/close different sets of Explorer windows all the time.
Split panes are useful in a zillion places. I use them all the time in editors, for example. It's often more convenient to have everything in the same window. I may have the same file open, looking at different parts, or I may have multiple files open. I could see that being useful in a filesystem browser. Not all the time (which, contrary to what blakeyrat seems to think, no one here is advocating). But definitely sometimes.
Spatial navigation, OTOH, I always avoid.
