Dunno if you guys have seen this fairly polished video blakeyrant about Windows 8 usability.

His first big WTF was that apparently laptop touchpads look like a tablet touch screen to the Interface Formerly Known as Metro. So moving your cursor across the screen is interpreted as a swipe to switch applications. This has to be a misconfiguration thing...right?!

I thought his rants about the "Charms Bar" (seriously, WTF MS!?) and trying to find the Control Panel were amusing.

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

The first time I heard of Windows Media Centre was while playing Guild Wars on Windows Vista. It introduced itself by taking up a chunk of my already-limited resources while I was trying to play a game and starting up. To it's credit, I think it started up in the background, and I was eventually able to find a solution - modify the program permissions so that nothing could run it. However, I was still left with a nagging question: why now?

Shoreline:

The first time I heard of Windows Media Centre was while playing Guild Wars on Windows Vista. It introduced itself by taking up a chunk of my already-limited resources while I was trying to play a game and starting up. To it's credit, I think it started up in the background, and I was eventually able to find a solution - modify the program permissions so that nothing could run it. However, I was still left with a nagging question: why now?

 

This way, please.

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yeah, I wondered if he'd thought of that, especially since it's a pretty common cross platform shortcut (does OSX do that, too)? But that can't be the only way to close an IFKAM app, can it?

boomzilla:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yeah, I wondered if he'd thought of that, especially since it's a pretty common cross platform shortcut (does OSX do that, too)? But that can't be the only way to close an IFKAM app, can it?

It's the only way I've found so far. And trying to print a pdf from the built in reader: I right-clicked to get to a menu, could not find a way to print in there. The only way I could find to print was Ctrl+P

boomzilla:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yeah, I wondered if he'd thought of that, especially since it's a pretty common cross platform shortcut (does OSX do that, too)? But that can't be the only way to close an IFKAM app, can it?

It's not. Mouse up to the top of the display, and drag down. Visual feedback tells you when you've gone far enough. By which I mean you get a thumbnail that changes size. If you aren't on ARM, there's always Task Manager as well. Then again, the idea seems to be that store apps (which seems to be the current unofficial name; at least that's how Visual Studio refers to them), like phone apps, don't normally get quit out of--they're supposed to suspend down to not using many resources such that you wouldn't mind leaving a bunch of 'em up.

boomzilla:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yeah, I wondered if he'd thought of that, especially since it's a pretty common cross platform shortcut (does OSX do that, too)?

Apple-W to close an app's window.

Apple-Q to quit the app completely.

 

But that can't be the only way to close an IFKAM app, can it?

Restart the computer? Alt-Tab task switcher and hit the 'x'?

Remember, they're designed like mobile apps ... they get suspended when you leave their screen. I believe that Windows 8 will later shutdown the app if it has been suspended for a certain amount of time, but I'm probably mistaken.

The cell phone video of him working on it is quite amusing. Sorry you got so frustrated blakey ... I go straight to desktop (Winkey-D) and pretty much stay there. Important apps are pinned to the taskbar; others might require a trip to the start screen ... :shrug:

If you're gonna continue to use Win8, you might want to check out all of Paul Thurrott's Windows 8 tips/tricks at http://www.winsupersite.com.

My most frustrating bits involve doing random stuff in control panel .. some settings are controlled from the Start Screen Settings menu, other things are controlled from the Desktop Control Panel. For instance, to turn on bluetooth from the Desktop Control Panel, you get shunted out to the Start Screen Settings for controlling Wireless stuff. Its quite jarring.

Blakeyrant indeed. :)

zelmak:

Apple-W to close an app's window.

Apple-Q to quit the app completely.

 

Both of which are right next to Apple-A, which is "select all", and there's no way anybody's finger will slip when using the one of those shortcuts that's non-destructive.

 

Rootbeer:

zelmak:

Apple-W to close an app's window.

Apple-Q to quit the app completely.

 

Both of which are right next to Apple-A, which is "select all", and there's no way anybody's finger will slip when using the one of those shortcuts that's non-destructive.

 

Except for that whole "confirm do you want to save before exiting" thing

Speaking of those OSX-based shortcuts, In Chrome and Firefox, the "close tab" shortcut is ^W. The "close all the tabs with no confirmation" shortcut is ^Q.

Firefox you can at least set to prompt on exit if you've got more then one tab open. Chrome, I had to work around this by keeping an app tab open with an onbeforeunload. (Also helped me work around the fact that Chrome lacks a null state.)

MiffTheFox:

Speaking of those OSX-based shortcuts, In Chrome and Firefox, the "close tab" shortcut is ^W. The "close all the tabs with no confirmation" shortcut is ^Q.

Firefox you can at least set to prompt on exit if you've got more then one tab open. Chrome, I had to work around this by keeping an app tab open with an onbeforeunload. (Also helped me work around the fact that Chrome lacks a null state.)

In both Chrome and Firefox, Ctrl-F4 also works as a Close Tab. Alt-F4 continues to close the Window (and possibly the app).

I didn't know about Ctrl-W, though and may start using it instead ... not as much of a reach across the keyboard.

Ben L.:

Rootbeer:

zelmak:

Apple-W to close an app's window.

Apple-Q to quit the app completely.

 

Both of which are right next to Apple-A, which is "select all", and there's no way anybody's finger will slip when using the one of those shortcuts that's non-destructive.

 

Except for that whole "confirm do you want to save before exiting" thing

And, since 10.7, that an app that gets closed and then re-opened will bring back the documents where you left off. Unless, of course, you're one of those whiners who somehow thinks this is annoying rather than useful and so turns off that behavior — but then you'd get asked if you want to save your work.

Gurth:

an app that gets closed and then re-opened will bring back the documents where you left off.

 

I would find that useful - bit like hibernation support. Often I want to continue where I left off after being interrupted with a journey or so.

However, vim's behaviour of dropping your cursor back onto the current line when quitting was one default I immediately disabled. Found that confusing.

zelmak:

In both Chrome and Firefox, Ctrl-F4 also works as a Close Tab. Alt-F4 continues to close the Window (and possibly the app).

I didn't know about Ctrl-W, though and may start using it instead ... not as much of a reach across the keyboard.

Yeah I knew about Ctrl+F4, but I don't know where people picked that up from originally. The one the UI teaches you (in the menus) is Ctrl+W.

 

FrostCat:

boomzilla:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yeah, I wondered if he'd thought of that, especially since it's a pretty common cross platform shortcut (does OSX do that, too)? But that can't be the only way to close an IFKAM app, can it?

It's not. Mouse up to the top of the display, and drag down. Visual feedback tells you when you've gone far enough. By which I mean you get a thumbnail that changes size. If you aren't on ARM, there's always Task Manager as well. Then again, the idea seems to be that store apps (which seems to be the current unofficial name; at least that's how Visual Studio refers to them), like phone apps, don't normally get quit out of--they're supposed to suspend down to not using many resources such that you wouldn't mind leaving a bunch of 'em up.

There's actually another way to close apps. (The gesture you described can also be used to snap apps to the left or right hand side of the screen).

Move the mouse pointer to the top-left corner of the display.  At this point, you get a thumbnail of the most recently used Metro app (or the desktop), which you can right click to close.  If you mouse down now, you get the "Metro switcher", which shows you a list of all recent Metro apps (each of which can be closed using the right-click context menu).  You can also access this list using the shortcut Windows-TAB.  (If you hold down the Windows key, the list will stay up and you can use right-click to close apps.  If you use CTRL-Windows-Tab, the list will stay up without holding down any keys).  The equivalent touch gesture would be to swipe in from the top-left corner.

Also, I think Windows RT (ARM) does have the Task Manager.

MiffTheFox:

Yeah I knew about Ctrl+F4, but I don't know where people picked that up from originally.

Ctrl+F4 was the standard way to close documents in Word 2.0. Later it became the standard way to close child windows in MDI applications (in Windows 3.0).

Ctrl+F4 on Mac is used for switching between windows of the currently focussed application (since Alt+Tab doesn't).

zelmak:

The cell phone video of him working on it is quite amusing. Sorry you got so frustrated blakey ...

You do realise it's not actually Blakeyrat, right? ;-)

Daniel Beardsmore:

You do realise it's not actually Blakeyrat, right?

 

Oh? Okay, I'll watch.

... time passes..

Consumed. He brings up some interesting points... but god he sounds so whiny about them, labouring his points somewhat.

I'd be interested in Blakey's feedback about UI design and discoverability - whether or not he agrees with points made.

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

 

When people are pushing touchscreens as the new paradigm, something that will do away with the "mouse and keyboard forever". for you to suggest keyboard shortcuts as the easiest method to do something seems just a tad counterintuitive.

I'll tell you what it reminds me of ... the bad old days of Linux, where despite having a wonderful Gnome or KDE IDE, doing anything useful means dropping down to shell, and typing "tar -xvfc file destination".

 

daveime:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

 

When people are pushing touchscreens as the new paradigm, something that will do away with the "mouse and keyboard forever". for you to suggest keyboard shortcuts as the easiest method to do something seems just a tad counterintuitive.

I'll tell you what it reminds me of ... the bad old days of Linux, where despite having a wonderful Gnome or KDE IDE, doing anything useful means dropping down to shell, and typing "tar -xvfc file destination".

 

I run Fedora with xfce and I spend most of my time with at least four terminal emulators open. For me, it's much faster to type "ls" than to open whatever file manager I have and navigate to a directory. To compile a program, I type "go build". Editing a file named pants.go is simply "vim pa[tab]". I can open three chat clients by typing "irssi".

The reason computers are better than consoles is the same as the reason I use a terminal instead of a touch screen: keyboards are simply more efficient.

daveime:

I'll tell you what it reminds me of ... the bad old days of Windows, where despite having a wonderful Control Panel or User Management IDE, doing anything useful means dropping down to shell, and typing "NET USER" or "NET USE" or "ARP -a" etc...

 

THAT WAS YEARS AGO TECHNOLOGY HAS MOVED ON STOP TALKING ABOUT ANCIENT STUFF O GOD WHY DO I BOTHER etc...

Ben L.:

I run Fedora with xfce

 

Can I ask your opinion of XFCE over other X servers? I know the general anti-bloat/streamlined/speedy comments people have made, but would welcome more experiential feedback.

Ben L.:

To compile a program, I type "go build". Editing a file named pants.go is simply "vim pa[tab]"...keyboards are simply more efficient

I'm not convinced they are - Blakey once asked the question if you were measurably more efficient or simply felt it. I know I feel more comfortable and productive at a command line in many cases because I'm familiar with it, but I've never taken any measurements to compare speeds.

For some things I use aliases and scripts to kick off as a background task, for others I use graphical means. SFTP is one where I use both, depending upon the OS I'm currently on.

daveime:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

 

When people are pushing touchscreens as the new paradigm, something that will do away with the "mouse and keyboard forever". for you to suggest keyboard shortcuts as the easiest method to do something seems just a tad counterintuitive.

I'll tell you what it reminds me of ... the bad old days of Linux, where despite having a wonderful Gnome or KDE IDE, doing anything useful means dropping down to shell, and typing "tar -xvfc file destination".

 

Did you even watch the video? The whole point of this conversation is figuring out how to do things in Windows 8 on a laptop or desktop where there is no touch screen.

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yes it does.  And there are lots of other key combinations that do lots of other things.  And everyone here is familiar with all of them.  But that completely misses the point.  One of the main ideas behind a GUI is that you don't have to type a bunch of commands or know a bunch of key combinations -- everything you need is right there on the screen, either as an icon or button or menu item.  When you elimate the graphic elements and force users to use various key combinations instead, you've just taken a giant step backwards to the old days of DOS.

El_Heffe:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

Yes it does.  And there are lots of other key combinations that do lots of other things.  And everyone here is familiar with all of them.  But that completely misses the point.  One of the main ideas behind a GUI is that you don't have to type a bunch of commands or know a bunch of key combinations -- everything you need is right there on the screen, either as an icon or button or menu item.  When you elimate the graphic elements and force users to use various key combinations instead, you've just taken a giant step backwards to the old days of DOS.

You are reading more into my statement than is there. How is it missing any point? Where do I argue that you should need to memorize key strokes? Why are you making shit up that I didn't say? In fact, if you read further on in the thread, you will see that I complain about trying to print and not having a menu to do it.

JoeCool:

You are reading more into my statement than is there. How is it missing any point? Where do I argue that you should need to memorize key strokes? Why are you making shit up that I didn't say?

There were several comments about "this key combination does this" and "this key combination does that".   That's what I was really responding to, not you specifically.  I should have been more clear about that.

Cassidy:

Gurth:

an app that gets closed and then re-opened will bring back the documents where you left off.

 

I would find that useful - bit like hibernation support. Often I want to continue where I left off after being interrupted with a journey or so.

I find it very handy: I often work on a bunch of documents at the same time, for example, and I like not having to manually re-open them all and find my place in them the next time I start up the application.

Zecc:

Ctrl+F4 on Mac is used for switching between windows of the currently focussed application (since Alt+Tab doesn't).

Ctrl+F4 goes through all windows of all applications, in the way Alt+Tab does in Windows. That last combo doesn't do anything in OS X, but Command+Tab cycles through applications, while Command+` (backtick/grave accent) cycles through the windows of the current application. Often, though, pressing F9 or F10 is handier if you're looking for a specific application or window (that's F3 and Ctrl+F3, respectively, for those used to new-style Mac keyboards).

Gurth:

Ctrl+F4 goes through all windows of all applications, in the way Alt+Tab does in Windows. That last combo doesn't do anything in OS X, but Command+Tab cycles through applications, while Command+` (backtick/grave accent) cycles through the windows of the current application. Often, though, pressing F9 or F10 is handier if you're looking for a specific application or window (that's F3 and Ctrl+F3, respectively, for those used to new-style Mac keyboards).

My mistake. I wasn't sure about Ctrl+F4 and though I had realized I wrote Alt+Tab instead of Cmd+Tab out of habit, I never got to correct myself.

As for Cmd+`, it doesn't work in keyboards without a key for the backtick (obviously). F9, F10 and F3 are nice but they often conflict with applications. These are configurable, mind you.

Cassidy:

Daniel Beardsmore:

You do realise it's not actually Blakeyrat, right?

 

Oh? Okay, I'll watch.

... time passes..

Consumed. He brings up some interesting points... but god he sounds so whiny about them, labouring his points somewhat.

I'd be interested in Blakey's feedback about UI design and discoverability - whether or not he agrees with points made.

Meh. I couldn't last two minutes, because he was just so wrong from the get-go. I need a higher quality of rant than that guy provided, and it includes at least a modicum of not talking out your ass. The new touch gestures aren't super-discoverable, but you can't be bothered to notice the mouse pointer changing when it hits the edge of the screen, and then experimenting? Are you someone's great-aunt Maude or something?

daveime:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

 

When people are pushing touchscreens as the new paradigm, something that will do away with the "mouse and keyboard forever"

Doesn't the idea of "doing away with the mouse and keyboard forever" lose meaning in the real world, where people *type*? I'm trying to imagine people in, say, HR or something, trying to do email and run payrolls and what-not, all from a soft keyboard. And then I imagine them storming the C-level offices with pitchforks.

FrostCat:

daveime:

JoeCool:

Closing apps: Alt-F4 works.

 

When people are pushing touchscreens as the new paradigm, something that will do away with the "mouse and keyboard forever"

Doesn't the idea of "doing away with the mouse and keyboard forever" lose meaning in the real world, where people *type*? I'm trying to imagine people in, say, HR or something, trying to do email and run payrolls and what-not, all from a soft keyboard. And then I imagine them storming the C-level offices with pitchforks.

You can pry my physical mouse and keyboard away from my cold dead fingertips.

FrostCat:

Doesn't the idea of "doing away with the mouse and keyboard forever" lose meaning in the real world, where people *type*?

The fact that plenty of add-on keyboards are sold for tablets already seems to indicate that many people want to type on something other than a glass pane. Both full-size computers and tablets have their uses, but trying to use one for tasks better done on the other is just making things difficult for yourself, if you ask me.

joe.edwards:

You can pry my physical mouse and keyboard away from my cold dead fingertips.

I'm cool with a touchpad instead of a mouse (as long as it still has accompanying physical buttons, mind you), but I'll gladly grab the keyboard from your cold dead fingertips if that's what it takes to assure one for myself.

Zecc:

I'm cool with a touchpad instead of a mouse (as long as it still has accompanying physical buttons, mind you) …

I had to use my laptop for a few days while resurrecting Windows 8 (within a week, it broke its own bootloader configuration file and stopped booting — a bug that goes back to Vista).

I was surprised how easily I could pull off artwork in Inkscape with a trackpad. However, I do have an advantage: it's a four-button trackpad. So many machines have only two trackpad buttons! I typically use the top-left corner to simulate middle mouse, but having a hardware button allows me to have middle-drag, which is pan in Inkscape, something I use constantly. Plus middle click for zoom in, hold shift to zoom out — so much easier to do with a real button. I find tapping the top-left corner really fiddly, sometimes the driver thinks you just clicked.

Cassidy:

I know I feel more comfortable and productive at a command line in many cases because I'm familiar with it, but I've never taken any measurements to compare speeds.

I refuse to believe that there can ever be a single input method that can be strictly superior to all others at all possible tasks. In other words, any given input paradigm will most likely have a set of tasks that it will excel at, while there will be others that it will suck at.