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iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

Last post 03-13-2012 12:54 PM by morbiuswilters. 53 replies.
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  • 03-05-2012 11:59 AM

    • Anketam
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    In order to avoid me further derailing blakeyrat's 'iOS devices (iPods, iPads, iPhones) have no JavaScript debugger' by going into intelligent design I decided to put my post in a seperate thread.

    boog:
    boomzilla:
    PJH:
    boomzilla:
    dargor17:
    Does any thread survive without total derailement around here?
    Thread evolution is typically very chaotic.
    There was I thinking it was intelligent design instead...
    They're not mutually exclusive.
    No, it's just an absurd notion that anyone who's intelligent might design something by means of chaos. Then again, I've worked with a lot of software that was designed that way.

    I tend to look at DNA much like software and means to store data, so it is possible to a certain extent to compare them. 

    • To start a human genome has roughly 3 billion base pairs.  Since DNA has 4 possible values converting it to binary is easy, which translates to 6 billion bits or 715 MB of information.  So with just 715 MB of storage, it contains all the data needed to construct and operate a human organic machine.  Compare this to something man made like Windows XP which operates a computer and takes up how much disk space? (Answer is ~1.5 GB depends on a number of factors).
    • The human body utilizes probably the most insane degree of redundancy possible in that each cell (which totals ~50 trillion) gets a full copy of genome even the parts it does not need to perform the cell's designated job, try comparing that to a RAID.
    • DNA does not need nor receive patches or updates to fix design flaws, it instead is able to adapt and handle issues as they arise (what an operating system that can fix itself WTF?).
    • Each human has a slightly different version of the genome (which means there are a total of 7 billion versions of the human operating system), but despite all the variations in the code your copy of the genome is compatible with half of the world's population (assuming 50/50 gender distribution which I know is not correct, I blame China).  If you try to swap modules from different versions of windows 7 you would likely encounter issues.
    • As far as software stability is concerned DNA can stay stable for well over 60 years under normal ware and tare, how often do you have to reinstall windows on a computer? (In my case it normally is every 3 years).
    • DNA stores information at the molecular level which means per unit of weight the human body is capable of storing 255 million times as much information as a hard drive can (mind you the human body wastes all of its extra storage in redundancy).  The calculation for this is below, you can adjust it accordingly, not to mention that as time goes on this factor is shrinking quickly, still it is impressive.

    For these reasons I find it very hard to believe that this was just an accident and that we do have a creator.  I have seen 'accidental' code and I have seen some of the code posted here, and it does not look like what is present in our DNA.  Our DNA points to that some entity of some kind put a lot of effort into coding us so that our bodies could function.

    Human
     50,000,000,000,000 Cells
     at 715 MB =
     35,750,000,000,000,000 MB
     at 86600 grams
     storage per gram in MB = 412,817,551,963


    Computer
    1 Hard drive
     at 1,048,576 MB
     at 650 grams
     storage per gram in MB =  1,613

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
    - Weng
  • 03-05-2012 1:36 PM In reply to

    • locallunatic
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    Anketam:

    In order to avoid me further derailing blakeyrat's 'iOS devices (iPods, iPads, iPhones) have no JavaScript debugger' by going into intelligent design I decided to put my post in a seperate thread.

    And none of the people in that discussion will see your post here.  Plus now people avoiding that thread will stumble on this crap here.

  • 03-05-2012 1:38 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    Anketam:

    In order to avoid me further derailing blakeyrat's 'iOS devices (iPods, iPads, iPhones) have no JavaScript debugger' by going into intelligent design I decided to put my post in a seperate thread.

    boog:
    boomzilla:
    PJH:
    boomzilla:
    dargor17:
    Does any thread survive without total derailement around here?
    Thread evolution is typically very chaotic.
    There was I thinking it was intelligent design instead...
    They're not mutually exclusive.
    No, it's just an absurd notion that anyone who's intelligent might design something by means of chaos. Then again, I've worked with a lot of software that was designed that way.

    I tend to look at DNA much like software and means to store data, so it is possible to a certain extent to compare them. 

    • To start a human genome has roughly 3 billion base pairs.  Since DNA has 4 possible values converting it to binary is easy, which translates to 6 billion bits or 715 MB of information.  So with just 715 MB of storage, it contains all the data needed to construct and operate a human organic machine.  Compare this to something man made like Windows XP which operates a computer and takes up how much disk space? (Answer is ~1.5 GB depends on a number of factors).
    • The human body utilizes probably the most insane degree of redundancy possible in that each cell (which totals ~50 trillion) gets a full copy of genome even the parts it does not need to perform the cell's designated job, try comparing that to a RAID.
    • DNA does not need nor receive patches or updates to fix design flaws, it instead is able to adapt and handle issues as they arise (what an operating system that can fix itself WTF?).
    • Each human has a slightly different version of the genome (which means there are a total of 7 billion versions of the human operating system), but despite all the variations in the code your copy of the genome is compatible with half of the world's population (assuming 50/50 gender distribution which I know is not correct, I blame China).  If you try to swap modules from different versions of windows 7 you would likely encounter issues.
    • As far as software stability is concerned DNA can stay stable for well over 60 years under normal ware and tare, how often do you have to reinstall windows on a computer? (In my case it normally is every 3 years).
    • DNA stores information at the molecular level which means per unit of weight the human body is capable of storing 255 million times as much information as a hard drive can (mind you the human body wastes all of its extra storage in redundancy).  The calculation for this is below, you can adjust it accordingly, not to mention that as time goes on this factor is shrinking quickly, still it is impressive.

    For these reasons I find it very hard to believe that this was just an accident and that we do have a creator.  I have seen 'accidental' code and I have seen some of the code posted here, and it does not look like what is present in our DNA.  Our DNA points to that some entity of some kind put a lot of effort into coding us so that our bodies could function.

    Human
     50,000,000,000,000 Cells
     at 715 MB =
     35,750,000,000,000,000 MB
     at 86600 grams
     storage per gram in MB = 412,817,551,963


    Computer
    1 Hard drive
     at 1,048,576 MB
     at 650 grams
     storage per gram in MB =  1,613

    You do know that DNA sucks on many, many levels and is one of the reasons you get cancer right?  Also it is full of bloatware that does nothing.

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-05-2012 1:54 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    Also it is full of bloatware that does nothing no one understands (yet?).
    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 1:57 PM In reply to

    • Anketam
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    locallunatic:
    Plus now people avoiding that thread will stumble on this crap here.
    I would like to consider it more of sharing the love.

    serguey123:
    You do know that DNA sucks on many, many levels and is one of the reasons you get cancer right?  Also it is full of bloatware that does nothing.
    Hence my estimate of 60 years, I figured at that point you start encountering corruption issues that result in things like cancer.  Still last longer than any operating system we can make.  As far as bloat ware is concern, if you got the space might as well fill it up with stuff.  Who knows maybe god hid some easter eggs in the bloatware, or it is just his signature and we are just mistaking it as bloatware.

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
    - Weng
  • 03-05-2012 1:57 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    You do know that DNA sucks on many, many levels and is one of the reasons you get cancer right?
    What the fuck? DNA isn't "one of the reasons you get cancer". Damage to DNA is, but that's like saying "My hard drive sucks because it breaks when I hit it with a hammer."

    serguey123:
    Also it is full of bloatware that does nothing.
    Wrong. Noncoding DNA has many uses. Additionally, there is evidence that even "junk DNA" has some use that we just haven't discovered yet.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 2:26 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    serguey123:
    You do know that DNA sucks on many, many levels and is one of the reasons you get cancer right?
    What the fuck? DNA isn't "one of the reasons you get cancer". Damage to DNA is, but that's like saying "My hard drive sucks because it breaks when I hit it with a hammer."

    If hitting it with a hammer is your simile for being alive then yes

    morbiuswilters:
    serguey123:
    Also it is full of bloatware that does nothing.
    Wrong. Noncoding DNA has many uses. Additionally, there is evidence that even "junk DNA" has some use that we just haven't discovered yet.

    Look, a lot of the DNA that we know what it does is there for backward compatibility, hence things that we no longer use, will not use anymore and is sometimes harmful

    Anketam:
    As far as bloat ware is concern, if you got the space might as well fill it up with stuff.  Who knows maybe god hid some easter eggs in the bloatware, or it is just his signature and we are just mistaking it as bloatware.

    It's probably heavenly porn

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-05-2012 2:38 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilters:
    serguey123:
    You do know that DNA sucks on many, many levels and is one of the reasons you get cancer right?
    What the fuck? DNA isn't "one of the reasons you get cancer". Damage to DNA is, but that's like saying "My hard drive sucks because it breaks when I hit it with a hammer."

    If hitting it with a hammer is your simile for being alive then yes

    Well, yeah, it is. Being alive creates a lot of wear-and-tear. How many machines can run 24/7 for 80+ years? Also, you seem to miss a key point: DNA doesn't exist to make you happy. DNA exists to propagate itself. If an individual lives forever then the genetic pool becomes stagnant. The entire point of dying is so that DNA has a way to refine itself, making better DNA down the line.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 3:18 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
      Being alive creates a lot of wear-and-tear.

    Yes 

    morbiuswilters:
    How many machines can run 24/7 for 80+ years?

    Man-made? There are a lot of old structures that still could serve their original purpose and are very, very old.

    Of the other kind, think of viruses and prions, they seem to wheater old age just fine

    morbiuswilters:
    Also, you seem to miss a key point: DNA doesn't exist to make you happy. DNA exists to propagate itself. If an individual lives forever then the genetic pool becomes stagnant. The entire point of dying is so that DNA has a way to refine itself, making better DNA down the line.

    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.  BTW if you think that people should not live forever and that they live too much already you should research the inuits way of doing it.

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-05-2012 3:30 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.
    And so "perfection" includes being impervious to radiation and various chemicals known to the State of California? I guess that's not totally unreasonable as a definition of perfection, but it makes talking about it like you were kinda dumb.
    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 3:33 PM In reply to

    • Anketam
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    morbiuswilters:
    How many machines can run 24/7 for 80+ years?

    Man-made? There are a lot of old structures that still could serve their original purpose and are very, very old.

    Of the other kind, think of viruses and prions, they seem to wheater old age just fine

    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.  BTW if you think that people should not live forever and that they live too much already you should research the inuits way of doing it.

    Old structures are static they are not actively moving around and doing stuff.  Viruses die when they infect a cell so their life spans are very short.  If you are refering to that some can be dorminate for extremely long periods of time that goes back to the old structures point, they aren't doing anything, so they will last a long time.

    As for the short comings of DNA not being perfect, I never claimed it was perfect, I just find it a marvel of complexity that is far superior to any software/operating system that we humans can make today.

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
    - Weng
  • 03-05-2012 3:33 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    Man-made? There are a lot of old structures that still could serve their original purpose and are very, very old.
    That's not a machine.

    serguey123:
    Of the other kind, think of viruses and prions, they seem to wheater old age just fine
    Viruses are just DNA. And viruses aren't multi-celled so they can't get cancer as we know it, although they can suffer deadly (for themselves, or for their hosts) mutations. Which is fundamentally how cancer starts.

    serguey123:
    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.
    What you are saying is "If something is not damaged, it can remain undamaged for some time." DNA is actually very resilient, it's just that it has a different use case than you want it to.

    serguey123:
    BTW if you think that people should not live forever and that they live too much already you should research the inuits way of doing it.
    I never said that I don't want people to live forever. I said that, from the perspective of DNA, it's detrimental. DNA's primary goal is to spread. Adaptation furthers this goal. Adaptation proceeds much more effectively when you have 1) lots of variations in DNA (sexual reproduction); and 2) a continuous clearing of old DNA (death).
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 3:39 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    Anketam:
    As for the short comings of DNA not being perfect, I never claimed it was perfect, I just find it a marvel of complexity that is far superior to any software/operating system that we humans can make today.
    You're correct, but software isn't developed 1) in an quasi-random, mutagenic fashion; 2) over a billion years; 3) directed by natural selection. That's not to say God does/does not exist (I don't really care about that discussion) but that evolution doesn't necessitate a creator (nor does it rule one out). The more interesting question is how DNA started. There's certainly a lot science can't tell us about that.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 3:49 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    I said that, from the perspective of DNA, it's detrimental. DNA's primary goal is to spread.

    I think it's a mistake to anthropomorphize stuff like this. Outside of a religious context, DNA has no purpose. It does not and cannot desire anything. Successful DNA continues to exist because for whatever reason, it is able to continue to exist. Whatever organism resulted did not completely die out. It may have grown more common or less.

    This is a similar fallacy IMHO to thinking that the current product of evolution is better than previous results simply because it came after. That's not how evolution and natural selection work.

    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 4:01 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    serguey123:
    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.
    And so "perfection" includes being impervious to radiation and various chemicals known to the State of California? I guess that's not totally unreasonable as a definition of perfection, but it makes talking about it like you were kinda dumb.

    That is not the only way mutation occur, heck is not even the most common.  Mutations occur normally.  You should read about how cancer actually occurs I guess.

    morbiuswilter:
    serguey123:
    Man-made? There are a lot of old structures that still could serve their original purpose and are very, very old.

    That's not a machine.

    def: A device having parts that perform or assist in performing any type of work

    morbiuswilter:
    What you are saying is "If something is not damaged, it can remain undamaged for some time." DNA is actually very resilient, it's just that it has a different use case than you want it to.

    So, cancer was intended?

    morbiuswilter:
    I never said that I don't want people to live forever

    You should, they are too many of you already

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-05-2012 4:08 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    I think it's a mistake to anthropomorphize stuff like this.
    Perhaps. Anthropomorphism is a common way of explaining things. I considered avoiding it but figured most people here were smart enough to understand that DNA isn't sentient (not saying you aren't, just in general). But, yes, a lot of evolutionary biologists feel that anthropomorphizing natural processes gives the wrong impression of things.

    boomzilla:
    This is a similar fallacy IMHO to thinking that the current product of evolution is better than previous results simply because it came after. That's not how evolution and natural selection work.
    Absolutely. For example, mankind is the most successful species on Earth at the moment. When dinosaurs were around, we'd probably have died off rather quickly. It's all about timing.

    Also, why the fuck does Chrome's spellchecker not recognize "anthropomorphize"??
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 4:08 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    boomzilla:
    serguey123:
    I'm not talking about the fact that people die of cancer, I'm talking about the fact that you couldn't get cancer if DNA was perfect.
    And so "perfection" includes being impervious to radiation and various chemicals known to the State of California? I guess that's not totally unreasonable as a definition of perfection, but it makes talking about it like you were kinda dumb.
    That is not the only way mutation occur, heck is not even the most common.  Mutations occur normally.  You should read about how cancer actually occurs I guess.
    Fuuuuuu....Yes, of course, excuse me for not reading your mind about what you apparently meant. You'll not that I made no mention about frequency, but was simply addressing the fact that you were saying, effectively, "if DNA were not bound by the laws of physics..."
    serguey123:

    morbiuswilter:
    I never said that I don't want people to live forever

    You should, they are too many of you already

    LOL. +1
    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 4:14 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    morbiuswilter:
    serguey123:
    Man-made? There are a lot of old structures that still could serve their original purpose and are very, very old.

    That's not a machine.

    def: A device having parts that perform or assist in performing any type of work

    Yes, and buildings do not do work. I don't know anyone who would consider a building a type of machine.

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilter:
    What you are saying is "If something is not damaged, it can remain undamaged for some time." DNA is actually very resilient, it's just that it has a different use case than you want it to.

    So, cancer was intended?

    No, DNA can't "intend" anything. However, DNA does not need the species it exists in to resist cancer indefinitely, so it doesn't. If there was some advantage to resisting cancer indefinitely, it's possible it might come to be. However, and this is the point you are missing, it is a disadvantage to DNA for its host to live indefinitely.

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilter:
    I never said that I don't want people to live forever

    You should, they are too many of you already

    WTF? I'm starting to think you know very little about biology and are just projecting your own philosophy onto things with no regard for facts.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 4:19 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    Anthropomorphism is a common way of explaining things. I considered avoiding it but figured most people here were smart enough to understand that DNA isn't sentient (not saying you aren't, just in general).
    Yeah, and not that I don't do it either. It's often the easy and lazy way out, and close enough for simple explanations. But for all that's "good" about it, the incorrect stuff rubs the pedantic dickweed in me the wrong way*.
    morbiuswilters:
    But, yes, a lot of evolutionary biologists feel that anthropomorphizing natural processes gives the wrong impression of things.
    Do they? I got the impression that they were among the worst offenders. Perhaps it's just in their "popular" communications or something. The worst example (of lots of things, naturally) is Dawkins and his damned memes.
    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 4:22 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    morbiuswilters:
    But, yes, a lot of evolutionary biologists feel that anthropomorphizing natural processes gives the wrong impression of things.
    Do they? I got the impression that they were among the worst offenders. Perhaps it's just in their "popular" communications or something. The worst example (of lots of things, naturally) is Dawkins and his damned memes.
    I guess the pop culture ones do, but I've never read Dawkins* so I don't know. I seem to remember Daniel C. Dennet found anthropomorphizing evolution to be repugnant. Then again, he was an unrepentant atheist who felt that the anthropormphism was too much like religion.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 4:30 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
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    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    serguey123:

    morbiuswilter:
    I never said that I don't want people to live forever

    You should, they are too many of you already

    WTF? I'm starting to think you know very little about biology and are just projecting your own philosophy onto things with no regard for facts.

    What biology and wanting you dead have in common?

    morbiuswilters:
    DNA does not need the species it exists in to resist cancer indefinitely, so it doesn't. If there was some advantage to resisting cancer indefinitely, it's possible it might come to be

    It does have defences against cancer, several, one of them is telomeres.

    morbiuswilters:
    However, and this is the point you are missing, it is a disadvantage to DNA for its host to live indefinitely.

    I think you are confused with another concept.  DNA is a simple molecule.

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-05-2012 6:38 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilters:
    DNA does not need the species it exists in to resist cancer indefinitely, so it doesn't. If there was some advantage to resisting cancer indefinitely, it's possible it might come to be

    It does have defences against cancer, several, one of them is telomeres.

    Do you not understand what the word indefinitely means?

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilters:
    However, and this is the point you are missing, it is a disadvantage to DNA for its host to live indefinitely.

    I think you are confused with another concept.  DNA is a simple molecule.

    DNA is definitely not simple. However, that's irrelevant; no matter how simple or complex DNA is, it would generally be disadvantageous--in the long run--for the host to survive indefinitely. New DNA combinations wouldn't have a chance to survive if old ones persisted. Therefore, DNA tends to only develop the defenses necessary for short-term survival.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-05-2012 6:53 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    Therefore, DNA tends to only develop the defenses necessary for short-term survival.
    Except for those damnable immortal worms.
    this post is bossy
  • 03-05-2012 7:01 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    morbiuswilters:
    Therefore, DNA tends to only develop the defenses necessary for short-term survival.
    Except for those damnable immortal worms.
    True, asexual beings don't have the pressures of DNA mixing that sexual beings do. They also tend to suck at evolution, which is why they're relegated to such simple creatures. That article is pretty silly, though. "Immortality" would require keeping my mind/thoughts/memories intact. Flatworms are only "immortal" in the sense that a particular sequence of DNA will remain consistent for long stretches of time. The cells still need regeneration.

    It also invalidates a lot of what serguery is saying. DNA is capable of surviving long-term, it just isn't optimal from an evolutionary standpoint. To sum up the point I've been trying to get across to him: our DNA evolved to die because it is an advantage for it to die.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 9:06 AM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    boomzilla:
    morbiuswilters:
    Therefore, DNA tends to only develop the defenses necessary for short-term survival.
    Except for those damnable immortal worms.
      They also tend to suck at evolution

    They don't.  They are perfectly adapted.  I'm beginning to wonder about how much do you know on the subject but change is not always good.

     

     

    morbiuswilters:
    which is why they're relegated to such simple creatures.

    Simple creatures are some of the best adapted and have been around for a long time, longer than human, they may even survive us, guess which is better adapted? 

    morbiuswilters:
    "Immortality" would require keeping my mind/thoughts/memories intact.

    No, it wouldn't, check the concept of inmortality 

    morbiuswilters:
    Flatworms are only "immortal" in the sense that a particular sequence of DNA will remain consistent for long stretches of time. The cells still need regeneration.

    Now you are being silly, of course they do.

    morbiuswilters:

    It also invalidates a lot of what serguery is saying. DNA is capable of surviving long-term, it just isn't optimal from an evolutionary standpoint. To sum up the point I've been trying to get across to him: our DNA evolved to die because it is an advantage for it to die.

    DNA is not alive, per se, I don't get how it could die.  Also you are wrong.  Look, let me put it in bullet points, maybe this way you'll get it. (I'll need to oversimplify but I'll hope you'll get it)

    • A living being "goal" is to survive as long as possible
    • A species "goal" is to thrive
    • DNA "goal" is to carry genetic information, nothing else

    Cancer is a failure of the copy protection mechanisms in place, an error, albeit a rare one.  It is not occur because DNA "thinks" you have lived too long, it is a numbers game.  In case you haven't noticed cancer is not what stands between us and inmortality (which is a retarded notion), some actually believe it could help find it.

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-06-2012 9:27 AM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    What biology and wanting you dead have in common?
     

    Everything.


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-06-2012 9:34 AM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    Simple creatures are some of the best adapted and have been around for a long time, longer than human, they may even survive us, guess which is better adapted? 
     

    Adaptation equals specialization.

    The least adapted and most jack-of-all trades tend to survive everything but never seem to dominate any particular niche.

    The more specialized species become (hyper)successful in their niche, but are more sensitive to environmental change.

    serguey123:
    A living being "goal" is to survive as long as possible

    The crusial addition is: "..until it gets a chance to reproduce"; but no longer. Everything else is bonus time.

    serguey123:
    A species "goal" is to thrive

    Can be derived from the first principle in item 1, and should not be mentioned as a separate fundamental.

    serguey123:
    DNA "goal" is to carry genetic information, nothing else

    Yep.

     

     


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-06-2012 9:54 AM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    dhromed:

    Adaptation equals specialization.

    Not really 

    dhromed:

    serguey123:
    A living being "goal" is to survive as long as possible

    The crusial addition is: "..until it gets a chance to reproduce"; but no longer. Everything else is bonus time.

    Ughh, no, not really. If that was true all living organims would die minutes after producing offpring and for the most part, they don't.

    Look, they longer you live the more time you have to produce offpring but that is not important to you as a single living organism, it doesn't benefit you at all. It is of course important for your species but not to you.  The more complex the organism, the less they reproduce even with added benefits.

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-06-2012 10:45 AM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    I spelled "crusial".

    What the fuck is wrong with me.


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-06-2012 11:08 AM In reply to

    • Anketam
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-12-2011
    • Nar Shaddaa
    • Posts 484

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    dhromed:
    ...

    What the fuck is wrong with me.

    You should never ask that question even when being rhetorical, you open the door far too wide.

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
    - Weng
  • 03-06-2012 12:28 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    Anketam:
    you open the door far too wide.
     

    Know what else is open far too wide?


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

    Filed under: ,
  • 03-06-2012 1:46 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    I'm getting sick of arguing this shit with you because you are clearly out of your depth, but here we go..

    serguey123:

    morbiuswilters:
    "Immortality" would require keeping my mind/thoughts/memories intact.

    No, it wouldn't, check the concept of inmortality

    Any useful definition of human immortality would definitely be that. Why would I give a fuck if my DNA could reproduce for a long time if my mind is dead? Stop being a retard.

    serguey123:
    DNA is not alive, per se, I don't get how it could die.
    Stop being a dipshit. You know exactly what I meant.

    serguey123:
  • A living being "goal" is to survive as long as possible
  • Sure.

    serguey123:
  • A species "goal" is to thrive
  • Sure.

    serguey123:
    • DNA "goal" is to carry genetic information, nothing else

    serguey123:
    DNA "goal" is to carry genetic information, nothing else
    Why do you think the individual and species have those goals? Ultimately the goal of DNA is to propagate itself, and we're just along for the ride.

    serguey123:
    Cancer is a failure of the copy protection mechanisms in place, an error, albeit a rare one.
    Jesus Christ you are dense. It's like you're not even following the same conversation. Cancer is a mutation. Mutations can be beneficial which is almost certainly why we don't have even better defenses against them; it's a trade-off between fidelity and adaptability.

    serguey123:
    It is not occur because DNA "thinks" you have lived too long, it is a numbers game.
    I am punching you in the throat in my mind. Nobody said DNA "thinks". I'll try to explain it to you one last time, using tiny words so your tiny brain can understand: mutations and sexual reproduction give more variants of DNA which generally improves adaptability. However, if "old" DNA hangs around the "new" DNA combinations have a harder time surviving due to competition for limit resources. Thus, after an individual reproduces it's often not much of an advantage for it to live longer. This is fucking Biology 101.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 1:51 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    Ughh, no, not really. If that was true all living organims would die minutes after producing offpring and for the most part, they don't.
    That's not at all what he said. Read it again. Some species do die right after reproduction but most don't BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW DNA WORKS, DIPSHIT. Instead, a species that doesn't live long enough to reproduce will quickly die out. However, once it has reproduced there usually isn't much evolutionary advantage to sticking around forever--in fact, as I've said repeatedly, it's disadvantageous for the species.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 2:11 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    However, once it has reproduced there usually isn't much evolutionary advantage to sticking around forever--in fact, as I've said repeatedly, it's disadvantageous for the species.
    If this is true, then it's probably because the act of living indefinitely is simply too difficult to achieve, not that it's a disadvantage (in and of itself) as far as natural selection goes. That's probably too nuanced an argument for this site, though.
    this post is bossy
  • 03-06-2012 2:23 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    morbiuswilters:
    However, once it has reproduced there usually isn't much evolutionary advantage to sticking around forever--in fact, as I've said repeatedly, it's disadvantageous for the species.
    If this is true, then it's probably because the act of living indefinitely is simply too difficult to achieve, not that it's a disadvantage (in and of itself) as far as natural selection goes. That's probably too nuanced an argument for this site, though.
    It's both. An individual doesn't change its DNA so it doesn't adapt. Since parents compete with children for limited resources, the established, non-adaptable individuals would crowd out the up-and-coming ones. In the long run, this means less adaptability for the species, which means a greater chance of extinction for a species, which means extinction of the DNA. Apply natural selection and a few hundred million years you end up with a situation wherein most sexually-reproducing species aren't adapted to live much longer than it takes to reproduce. A species which lives forever will find itself with a highly-static gene pool. For the simplest organisms that might be fine, but for complex organisms it usually isn't.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 2:38 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    A species which lives forever will find itself with a highly-static gene pool. For the simplest organisms that might be fine, but for complex organisms it usually isn't.

    OK, I agree with your explanation. The most fascinating thing about the result of evolution is that causality is often complex and sometimes appears counter intuitive.

    I recall reading about some experiment with EPROMS or something, where the experimenters evolved the designs to solve a particular problem. The resulting design made no sense, and ultimately, they discovered that it was extremely fragile. Just changing the ambient temperature was enough to get it to stop working. It relied, in part, on weird stuff like voltage leaking across gates (or something that sounded like that to this non-EE) or some similar form of minute manufacturing defect / detail. There were circuits set up that had no connection to anything else in the chip, but could not be removed without compromising the success of the design.

    this post is bossy
  • 03-06-2012 2:44 PM In reply to

    • Anketam
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-12-2011
    • Nar Shaddaa
    • Posts 484

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    It's both. An individual doesn't change its DNA so it doesn't adapt. Since parents compete with children for limited resources, the established, non-adaptable individuals would crowd out the up-and-coming ones. In the long run, this means less adaptability for the species, which means a greater chance of extinction for a species, which means extinction of the DNA. Apply natural selection and a few hundred million years you end up with a situation wherein most sexually-reproducing species aren't adapted to live much longer than it takes to reproduce. A species which lives forever will find itself with a highly-static gene pool. For the simplest organisms that might be fine, but for complex organisms it usually isn't.
    Living forever is also overrated, besides who would want to live with themselves forever, let alone being married to your spouse forever.

    Project Manager: I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk directly to the customer. Apparently my grip on reality is too tight.
    - Weng
  • 03-06-2012 3:47 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
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    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    Any useful definition of human immortality would definitely be that. Why would I give a fuck if my DNA could reproduce for a long time if my mind is dead? Stop being a retard.

    Not dead but you can't keep all your memories and your personality intact, that is not how the brain works.  BTW when did we started talking about humans (they were worms) or usefulness (inmortality is not very useful).

    morbiuswilters:
    Stop being a dipshit. You know exactly what I meant

    Pretend I don't, I don't actually speak english so keep that in mind.

    morbiuswilters:
    Why do you think the individual and species have those goals? Ultimately the goal of DNA is to propagate itself, and we're just along for the ride.

    No, not really, as I said, DNA is a fucking molecule, a device, a tool.  I disagree with your opinion on this, but you are entitled to it.

    morbiuswilters:
    It's like you're not even following the same conversation

    Maybe we aren't, if so I apologize for not following your point.

     

    morbiuswilters:
    after an individual reproduces it's often not much of an advantage for it to live longer. This is fucking Biology 101.

    The more complex the species the larger the lifespan, have you wondered why? 

    Look you have made a point several times to say that complex species benefit more from mutation because changes affect them more..  Maybe I'm reading you wrong but that is what I understood.

    However some of the simpler organism mutate faster and have less protection in place to prevent mutation.  It is all about balance, too much mutation and you die, too little and you become stagnant.

    You can of course believe in whatever please you more, that is your prerrogative and I apologize if I tried to usurp it somehow.  I'll try to be more careful from now on

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-06-2012 4:13 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:
    Pretend I don't, I don't actually speak english so keep that in mind.
     

    Die as in destroy. Dur.

    serguey123:
    No, not really, as I said, DNA is a fucking molecule, a device, a tool.

    It's the other way around. We are the tool.

     

    serguey123:
    The more complex the species the larger the lifespan, have you wondered why? 

    Because bigger species take longer to mature. A side effect is that they take longer to die off.

    A well-sheltered and -fed individual will continue living for quite a long time after the usual expiry date. Usually the enivronment kills off individuals, but take that away and all you have left is mechanical wear. Since the body has this mechanism in place that constantly renews you, this turns into a war of attrition. In the end, thermodynamics wins.


    In complex analysis, a meromorphic function on an open subset D of the complex plane is a function that is holomorphic on all D except a set of isolated points

  • 03-06-2012 4:27 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    dhromed:
    Because bigger species take longer to mature. A side effect is that they take longer to die off.
    Really, it has to do with a lot of things.

    dhromed:
    A well-sheltered and -fed individual will continue living for quite a long time after the usual expiry date. Usually the enivronment kills off individuals, but take that away and all you have left is mechanical wear. Since the body has this mechanism in place that constantly renews you, this turns into a war of attrition. In the end, thermodynamics wins.
    That depends what you mean by "expiry date". Death-by-outside-force is surely something we can protect against, but our cells have their own built-in lifetimes. As you get older your cells decline and aren't replaced as quickly or effectively. What you have to realize is that this is completely sensible. If you have two branches of evolution, one that dies after X years and one that can continuously renew itself, by and large the latter will end up extinct, for the reasons mentioned above. Death happens for a reason and that reason isn't "DNA sucks at being DNA" but rather "DNA is very good at being DNA"--or more accurately "the DNA that survives is very good at being DNA, at least for now".
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 4:28 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    dhromed:

    Die as in destroy. Dur.

    I don't get your meaning, nor your fancy words.

    dhromed:
    It's the other way around. We are the tool.

    Again, you as anybody else is entitled to their opinion, as long as your eyes don't start glowing and you start speaking ancient egyptian.

    dhromed:

    A well-sheltered and -fed individual will continue living for quite a long time after the usual expiry date. Usually the enivronment kills off individuals, but take that away and all you have left is mechanical wear. Since the body has this mechanism in place that constantly renews you, this turns into a war of attrition. In the end, thermodynamics wins.

    So it is not the DNA secretly scheming to kill you?  What an startling discovery!

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-06-2012 4:41 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:

    dhromed:
    It's the other way around. We are the tool.

    Again, you as anybody else is entitled to their opinion, as long as your eyes don't start glowing and you start speaking ancient egyptian.

    dhromed:

    A well-sheltered and -fed individual will continue living for quite a long time after the usual expiry date. Usually the enivronment kills off individuals, but take that away and all you have left is mechanical wear. Since the body has this mechanism in place that constantly renews you, this turns into a war of attrition. In the end, thermodynamics wins.

    So it is not the DNA secretly scheming to kill you?  What an startling discovery!

    Since it's obvious you wouldn't be capable of passing a middle school biology exam and that you have no desire to learn, I'd prefer to list out what seem to be your beliefs:

    • All living beings have an existence outside of their bodies and have leveraged DNA to do work for them rather than the other way around. DNA is a product of living beings, living beings are not a product of DNA.
    • DNA is bad at its job because it exists to do our bidding but ultimately it fails somehow and we die. It is not the case that death of the individual is beneficial to DNA and that that is the reason why we die.
    • DNA absolutely does not encode any information pertaining to a fixed lifespan. The fact that we die is incidental and is a failure of DNA.
    • It does not matter that it is detrimental to the DNA for the being carrying the DNA to not die. Detrimental or not, the DNA must simply grind away until it fails somehow.


    Basically, this sounds like some kind of mystical religious belief.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 5:09 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:

    • All living beings have an existence outside of their bodies and have leveraged DNA to do work for them rather than the other way around. DNA is a product of living beings, living beings are not a product of DNA.
    • DNA is bad at its job because it exists to do our bidding but ultimately it fails somehow and we die. It is not the case that death of the individual is beneficial to DNA and that that is the reason why we die.
    • DNA absolutely does not encode any information pertaining to a fixed lifespan. The fact that we die is incidental and is a failure of DNA.
    • It does not matter that it is detrimental to the DNA for the being carrying the DNA to not die. Detrimental or not, the DNA must simply grind away until it fails somehow.



    Basically, this sounds like some kind of mystical religious belief.

     

    See?  This is the physical proof that G . . .

    Oh, hell.  Forget it . . . I'll go back to troubleshooting my Nexus <-> NetApp issue.

     (This is strictly a joke, for the humor-impaired . . .)

  • 03-06-2012 5:12 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    nonpartisan:

    morbiuswilters:

    • All living beings have an existence outside of their bodies and have leveraged DNA to do work for them rather than the other way around. DNA is a product of living beings, living beings are not a product of DNA.
    • DNA is bad at its job because it exists to do our bidding but ultimately it fails somehow and we die. It is not the case that death of the individual is beneficial to DNA and that that is the reason why we die.
    • DNA absolutely does not encode any information pertaining to a fixed lifespan. The fact that we die is incidental and is a failure of DNA.
    • It does not matter that it is detrimental to the DNA for the being carrying the DNA to not die. Detrimental or not, the DNA must simply grind away until it fails somehow.



    Basically, this sounds like some kind of mystical religious belief.

     

    See?  This is the physical proof that G . . .

    Oh, hell.  Forget it . . . I'll go back to troubleshooting my Nexus <-> NetApp issue.

     

    I listed those things to illustrate how wrong they are. I'm not talking about God or souls here, just straight biology.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-06-2012 5:13 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    I listed those things to illustrate how wrong they are. I'm not talking about God or souls here, just straight biology.
     

    Sorry, didn't get the edit in fast enough.  Strictly intended as a joke.  I do not want to get into another such debate.

  • 03-06-2012 5:44 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    nonpartisan:
    morbiuswilters:
    I listed those things to illustrate how wrong they are. I'm not talking about God or souls here, just straight biology.

    Sorry, didn't get the edit in fast enough.  Strictly intended as a joke.  I do not want to get into another such debate.

    Why don't you believe in debate? What sort of anti-first amendment commie are you?
    this post is bossy
  • 03-07-2012 9:08 AM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    ] Since it's obvious you wouldn't be capable of passing a middle school biology exam and that you have no desire to learn, I'd prefer to list out what seem to be your beliefs:

    • All living beings have an existence outside of their bodies and have leveraged DNA to do work for them rather than the other way around. DNA is a product of living beings, living beings are not a product of DNA.
    • DNA is bad at its job because it exists to do our bidding but ultimately it fails somehow and we die. It is not the case that death of the individual is beneficial to DNA and that that is the reason why we die.
    • DNA absolutely does not encode any information pertaining to a fixed lifespan. The fact that we die is incidental and is a failure of DNA.
    • It does not matter that it is detrimental to the DNA for the being carrying the DNA to not die. Detrimental or not, the DNA must simply grind away until it fails somehow.



    Basically, this sounds like some kind of mystical religious belief.

    Let me return in kind and list what seems to be yours:

    • DNA is some sort of sentient being with a will of it own
    • It is intent on world domination
    • It is without errors, everything it does has a meaning.
    • We are DNA's bitch and we are done doing its bidding it leaves us to die

    So basically DNA to you is this:

     

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


  • 03-07-2012 10:53 AM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    boomzilla:
    Why don't you believe in debate? What sort of anti-first amendment commie are you?
     

    I believe in debate.  I've had many personal experiences in debate.  It has given me insights and revelations that I'm not smart enough to come up with on my own.  I can't replicate these and provide definitive proof, but I know my experiences and I know what debate has done for me.  But I'm not here to try to convince you; if you want to believe in debate, that's fine.  If you don't want to, that's fine too.

  • 03-07-2012 1:57 PM In reply to

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    serguey123:

    Let me return in kind and list what seems to be yours:

    • DNA is some sort of sentient being with a will of it own
    • It is intent on world domination
    • It is without errors, everything it does has a meaning.
    • We are DNA's bitch and we are done doing its bidding it leaves us to die

    You are a hopeless idiot.
    God has cursed the blind.

    "I confess. I've always been a humorist. It is not an accident that the Flounder is usually shown with a smile."
  • 03-07-2012 2:22 PM In reply to

    • serguey123
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-30-2010
    • Candyland (formely known as Corruptsylvania)
    • Posts 1,789

    Re: iOS devices have no JavaScript debugger Derailed

    morbiuswilters:
    You are a hopeless idiot.

    I'm not the only one

    #100085 +(531)- [X]

    <jome> I suppose there are bad coders, there are really bad coders, there are fucking retards, and there's coders writing lines like this: $resultscode = $resultscode - 0;


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